Why is my boat pointing into the wind?

[Snore]

Did I miss something? Why are you guys suggesting re-engineering the CLR by altering the rudder? Do we have reason to believe the rudder is moving on the rudder post?

I would start with eliminating one system at a time. First, since this is a wheel boat, find and expose the emergency tiller connection. Use this as a de facto rudder position indicator. Next sail the boat and when she insists on rounding up see if the e-tiller connection moves when you turn the wheel. This will eliminate the steering system.

Next, begin another test. At the dock, when the topping lift is tight, measure the distance from boom to the deck. Remeasure when close hauled and the boat is rounding up. While I do not believe you can get enough mast shift to alter steeering that much, measure again when the helm goes unresponsive.

Next, (my bet) begin another test. When she rounds up BLOW the main sheet. Do not adjust, just let it run free. My bet is a blown out main, but I could be wrong.

Finally, make a conscious effort to sail the boat flat- think seasick prone charter guests. If it does not happen when the boat is sailed flat, then when she heels- the rudder does not provide enough LR and the CLR moves forward.

If you blow the main and she still rounds up- then start checking if the rudder is moving on the post, or some other serious mechanical issue.

[Hanksy]

Could this boat have hydraulic steering? I've had a hyraulic leak that made the steering wander intermittently. It would be fine u til some air managed to find it's way into the hoses. Often the system would burp itself and be fine for a while and then would start to wander again.

[MartinR]

OK, we go by questions, there is not enough info.

1) What kind of steering, chain and wire, hydraulic, rack and pinion?

2) Is rudder original?

3) Is there good feedback in the wheel?

4) How about fouling) This can mess up basically everything.

[thinwater]

Clearly the rudder is loosing attached flow. Some have suggested overload resulting from poor trim. I don't know. But I have had problems with ventilation with high speed rudders (over 14 knots), and the description is similar.


The prop is rather close to the rudder and probably disturbs the flow over the upper half of the rudder. It sounds like there is also damamge, though It sounded like this was happening before.


* A little deeper might help, if it did not overload the shaft.
* Is the prop oversized or has it been relocated? Perhaps it is disrupting the flow. I've know folks to put a big prop on for better low speed maneuvering, and then have problems steering under sail.

* Is the foil smooth and a draft-forward design (rudders must operate at a much higher angle of attack than the keel, for example. I once had a rudder that was all but ruined by a rough finish; just fairing and smoothing it made a HUGE difference.

[Valmika]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK wild one! But if it was a slipping quadrant or the like, when the roundup was over the wheel wouldn't be in the normal position for straight ahead, would it? Seems like he would have noticed something like that.

Jim

Maybe he has just been lucky and it corrects each time on the other tack. I would check the quadrant cables anyway and the way it bolts to the rudder post. I found a problem like this on a Catalina 30 but it never slipped back the other way so it was easy to figure.

[sazarac]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well, if there is no mark or Turk's head or something... would one notice?
Seems like you'd probly feel something in it too though if it slipped. Depending on the size of the quadrant it might not take much of a slip to cause enough change in angle to affect it close hauled... but on a reach?... I got nothing...
So feel free to call me crazy, but under a load, the rudder post might bend slightly... enough to jam the otherwise slightly loose quadrant, whereas under a lesser load, that lack of very slight curve in the rudder post allows the quadrant to slip....
hell i dunno
do I hear laughter coming from SA?
entertaining thought puzzle though

The rudder on my boat had a cracked flange on the rudder postinside the rudder, allowing the rudder to turn on the post.

[singlespeed]

Besides the steering quadrant, I would check and see if the web in the rudder has come loose from the rudder stock. When it won't turn downwind, you load up the rudder, causing "something" to slip, maybe the quadrant or the rudder stock. By turning into the wind (tacking), you are freeing up the load and as you pass through the wind, the rudder takes up the load on the new tack, bringing the rudder back to center.

Have you locked the wheel and dove on the rudder and attempted to move the rudder?

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by sazarac

The rudder on my boat had a cracked flange on the rudder postinside the rudder, allowing the rudder to turn on the post.

I thought of that too but I dismissed it as another crazy thought. I just haven't seen it and couldn't imagine how that would happen... clearly my imagination is not wild enough. THAT is clearly another possibility too.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

My Opinion, More speed, less close haul!

Not knowing where the steering quadrant is on this boat, I'd say it's probably not to hard to mark the quad and rudder post where they mate with a sharpie or tape.
Then you'll see if it's slipping, maybe the key is loose or thru bolt broke, clamp bolt.
The other problem may be baggy sail shape.
Tighten the back haul on the main if you can to flatten that mainsail.
Sail shape is imperative in hard wind on your nose.
SV Cloud Duster

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I am also pondering if the CLR is inappropriate and causing it to round up.

What is CLR?

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And remember that Cascade yachts were often quite DIY in construction, and the possibly amateur builder might have not done the very best job of designing or executing the rudder.

Yes, many of the Cascades were kit boats but the rudder was not ordinarily designed by the individual finisher, but was fabricated by Yacht Constructors / Cascade Yachts. BTW the company is still in business (now in Warrenton, OR) so original specifications and many replacement parts are still available. Cascade Yachts

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Montanan

It sounds like you are stating you have experienced some damage to your rudder, and / or a rudder of alternate design has been installed as a replacement.

Are you sure the rudder is not slipping on occasion, or the replacement design is not similar to the original and thus may perform less effectively when experiencing weather helm [i.e., heading up into the wind]? It sounds like your having control issues when the rudder is under load, on a close reach or broad reach, so perhaps something is slipping in your steerage.

Image below is a drawing of a 27. Does your rudder look like this image.

Not certain but thirty inches seems a bit short in length for 27 foot boat and 6,400 lb displacement; kind of short in the legs so to speak.

The damage happened after the steering issues i described although the rudder could have been replaced by a previous owner who knows. the rudder does look the same as the drawing on sailboatdata.net and any photos of cascade 27s i can find online. I am trying to findthe correct dimentions for this boats rudder with no luck so far.Where is the slipping possible exacly? There is a pin securing the steering components on the rudder post and the all the weld of the steel skeleton were intact when i took the rudder apart

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Don C L

all true but it doesn't sound like his situation. Assuming we're not being trolled here, (which, no offense, does happen from time to time,) my next question is just how loose is your backstay? I am assuming you have a furling headsail, right? BTW wheel or tiller?
ahh, ok, edit, went back and checked, you have a wheel. So have you inspected the quadrant and the cables and all down there?

Yes quadrant and cables are all functioning properly and in good shape

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

It seems that many of you responders have not read through the thread...

The OP has said that when the roundup occurs in stronger winds he IS reefed down and has dumped the traveller to the limit. No need to suggest that he should be doing these things.

He has also said that it occurs in light winds, and that there is no big heel angle involved in those cases.

He has said that the phenomenon is intermittent, and does not always occur in the same conditions.

Finally, he has said that he is a reasonably experienced sailor (likely why he has already tried all the standard responses to uncontrolled roundups). He's looking for some unique set of conditions or design parameters that could explain the problem. The only thing that comes to my mind is that the rudder stalls easily. If the shape is poorly designed or executed, stall can occur rather suddenly when a critical angle of attack is reached. When it stalls, it looses nearly all of its "turning power", and thus the roundup. It could be that the intermittent aspect is related to minor differences of rudder angle being applied by the helmsman, and that only some times does he reach the stall angle. And I believe that the stall angle can vary with boat speed and with heel angle, adding some more uncontrolled variables to the problem. And remember that Cascade yachts were often quite DIY in construction, and the possibly amateur builder might have not done the very best job of designing or executing the rudder.

So, OP, in your place, answering your initial question, I would seriously consider making your new rudder a bit bigger than what you have now. I'd go deeper rather than longer chord length, and I'd be sure to use some standard NACA foil shape, preferably one that has a high stall angle. It may not cure the problem, but having a more powerful rudder is never a bad thing IMO.

Jim

I cheered outloud after reading the first 6 lines. Your description of what is possibly happening seems very probable. I have been trying to find original rudder dimentions for a cascade 27 all morning with no luck, would it be worthwhile going to a yard and taking dimentions from a few similar sized boats? do you have a recomendation for how much deeper i would want to go? Is there a video or instuctional you would recomend for learning what i need to know about NACA foil shapes? really appreciate this response thank you

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yer probly right Jim, but the way he described it, it sounded like it was happening on either tack, at any wind speed, boat speed or heel angle.. if I was reading correctly... which on my phone is an issue at times..
and it is true. 30" isn't much of a rudder...
at this point I'd be down in there yanking and pulling on the quadrant to see if it may be loose... I could imagine a scenario where MAYBE it could slip under a lighter load than under a heavy one, if it is able to slip at all.. and when it slips it would of course allow the boat to round up...
but then i have a wild imagination

the quadrant had a stout pin running through it and the rudder post and everything was in great shape its hard to imagine it slipping