Why is my boat pointing into the wind?

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Take somebody with you who understand how to trim sails. I doubt the boat is haunted which leaves us with only one other possibility.

To give you an idea of my experience I have my 50 ton master captains license and sailing endorsement , 5 years captain of a 40 foot sailin catamaran taking tourist out 3 charters a day 5+ days a weekand have owned 5 different monohulls around 27 feet in the last 10 years . I have never experienced this issue on any other sailboat I have been on. Not trying to be weird defensive braggy guy or anything ,just trying to get some more helpful responses

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by mike d.

Optimally you should find out what the rake if any there should be ! Then start with the lower stays 1st, sight up the mast to make sure you are straight, front to back, and side to side ! Then work your uppers, the same ! How much tension is a question I still have, though when the boat went in l;ast yr, and the rig was set up, the yard really put pressure on the rig ! More than we ever had ! That being said, the boat never sailed as nice before that, it just scared the hell out of me ! There was no looseness on leeward side when sailing at all ! The mast also seamed to be raked fwd some what. This was on out GulfStar 37 ! Note this was also with 39 yr old sails !

That’s interesting I will certainly sight up the mast again next time I’m on the boat. Ha jus for the response

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

That’s interesting I will certainly sight up the mast again next time I’m on the boat. Ha jus for the response

Thank you* for the response

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Typically the backstay tensioner is to pull the top of the mast back to tighten the headsail luff as I’m sure you know, but if the mast itself is raked more than it is supposed to you’ll get more weather helm. Are the sails old and blown out perhaps? The rudder, you rebuilt it, is the rudder post the same diameter? Is there slip in it? (That’s a long shot there) And you can rule out currents in your area? How is the boat loaded? I.e. is there a lot chain and/or big anchor in the bow? Or weight in the stern? And the rigging is tuned up?
its very curious given what you have described!
The rudder is not as long as the original? That may affect the CLR and make it more weather prone, but still, curious.

I am also pondering if the CLR is inappropriate and causing it to round up.

[Montanan]

It sounds like you are stating you have experienced some damage to your rudder, and / or a rudder of alternate design has been installed as a replacement.

Are you sure the rudder is not slipping on occasion, or the replacement design is not similar to the original and thus may perform less effectively when experiencing weather helm [i.e., heading up into the wind]? It sounds like your having control issues when the rudder is under load, on a close reach or broad reach, so perhaps something is slipping in your steerage.

Image below is a drawing of a 27. Does your rudder look like this image.

Not certain but thirty inches seems a bit short in length for 27 foot boat and 6,400 lb displacement; kind of short in the legs so to speak.

[Montanan]

A bit more background on weather helm which is likely what is happening unless there is a mechanical slippage occurring when the rudder is placed under load.

Here is what a wind gust does:

First, it immediately heels your boat over. Because of the heeling angle, less and less of the rudder area is effective in providing turning force to counter act the weather helm.

Second, in a gust, the wind force on the sails increases with the square of the velocity but the counteracting force from velocity of water over the rudder does not increase because in that instant the boat speed has not increased.

So you’re trying to dip twice to use the rudder – eventually there is none left. The helm will be all the way over and the wind force has completely overpowered the rudder = round up.

Third, by definition an increase in true wind speed across the water shifts the apparent wind angle on your boat so that it comes more from an aft angle. i.e. if you are on a close haul, the wind now more feels like a beam reach. This exacerbates the heeling force because your sails are now in too tight. The wind gust is pushing sideways on the sails rather than flowing smoothly around both sides of the sails. This is now a triple whammy on the rudder. Poor Rudder!

Why does an increase in wind increase weather helm?

A boat is trimmed with weather helm by raking the mast backwards. This shifts the force on the sails backwards. To see the effect now, push sideways on a pencil on your desk. If you push in the center, the pencil moves laterally sideways. If you push towards the eraser end the tip moves “upwind”. Increase the force, the tip mores upwind more. i.e. the more force towards the back of the boat, the more the boat wants to turn up into the wind = weather helm.

But remember – a small amount of weather helm actually helps you “climb” upwind using water force from the rudder.

Consider reefing the mainsail. This has three effects:

It shifts the center of pressure of the sail forward so that the rounding up effect from aft pressure is reduced
It reduces sail area aloft which reduces the heeling moment
It reduces the sail area in total which reduces the heeling moment
Heeling will be reduced by reefing the headsail, from the above arguments then this helps the rudder effectiveness.

[Don C L]

all true but it doesn't sound like his situation. Assuming we're not being trolled here, (which, no offense, does happen from time to time,) my next question is just how loose is your backstay? I am assuming you have a furling headsail, right? BTW wheel or tiller?
ahh, ok, edit, went back and checked, you have a wheel. So have you inspected the quadrant and the cables and all down there?

[Jim Cate]

It seems that many of you responders have not read through the thread...

The OP has said that when the roundup occurs in stronger winds he IS reefed down and has dumped the traveller to the limit. No need to suggest that he should be doing these things.

He has also said that it occurs in light winds, and that there is no big heel angle involved in those cases.

He has said that the phenomenon is intermittent, and does not always occur in the same conditions.

Finally, he has said that he is a reasonably experienced sailor (likely why he has already tried all the standard responses to uncontrolled roundups). He's looking for some unique set of conditions or design parameters that could explain the problem. The only thing that comes to my mind is that the rudder stalls easily. If the shape is poorly designed or executed, stall can occur rather suddenly when a critical angle of attack is reached. When it stalls, it looses nearly all of its "turning power", and thus the roundup. It could be that the intermittent aspect is related to minor differences of rudder angle being applied by the helmsman, and that only some times does he reach the stall angle. And I believe that the stall angle can vary with boat speed and with heel angle, adding some more uncontrolled variables to the problem. And remember that Cascade yachts were often quite DIY in construction, and the possibly amateur builder might have not done the very best job of designing or executing the rudder.

So, OP, in your place, answering your initial question, I would seriously consider making your new rudder a bit bigger than what you have now. I'd go deeper rather than longer chord length, and I'd be sure to use some standard NACA foil shape, preferably one that has a high stall angle. It may not cure the problem, but having a more powerful rudder is never a bad thing IMO.

Jim

[Don C L]

Yer probly right Jim, but the way he described it, it sounded like it was happening on either tack, at any wind speed, boat speed or heel angle.. if I was reading correctly... which on my phone is an issue at times..
and it is true. 30" isn't much of a rudder...
at this point I'd be down in there yanking and pulling on the quadrant to see if it may be loose... I could imagine a scenario where MAYBE it could slip under a lighter load than under a heavy one, if it is able to slip at all.. and when it slips it would of course allow the boat to round up...
but then i have a wild imagination

[GrowleyMonster]

Is there any way that you can shift the foresail tack forward a few inches? Also try flattening the jib a bit more. Sometimes easing the main or taking a reef just isn't enough.



If you have a deck stepped mast, you could try moving the step forward a half a foot or so. Not too much... then you have the opposite problem which can cause even more problems. You WANT a hard gust to make her round up a bit. Be sure and move the compression post along with the mast, if you move it. Moving the mast step is kind of a last resort.


Any damage to the keel? Change of prop? Is the rudder post bent?


A boat sailing in proper trim should pretty much steer itself though maybe not so well with the wind very far aft.

[Bill Seal]

Either slipping steering or that damn kraken.

[Stu Jackson]

Intermittent responses from anything often mean that there is a connection that may need to be inspected and repaired.


Advice to make permanent modifications for something that is intermittent are difficult to understand as potential solutions.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Smaller sailboats when overly heeled (big ones might too, but it's easier with a sub 30 ft) and unbalanced (sail wise) will turn with winds in excess of 20kts towards the wind. As the boat heels, the rudder looses contact with the water. The lifting function of the sails will make the boat head upwind. It's the mixture of this two effects that has you pointing at the wind and unable to avoid it. Solution is not to do a bigger rudder, just balance your boat better. Sail size, sail trim (as in traveller position if you have one, vang, etc) will all help to have a well balanced boat that you can control in high winds. Try: smaller headsail, reefed main, let the traveler go open (let the main spill).

My Opinion, More speed, less close haul!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yer probly right Jim, but the way he described it, it sounded like it was happening on either tack, at any wind speed, boat speed or heel angle.. if I was reading correctly... which on my phone is an issue at times..
and it is true. 30" isn't much of a rudder...
at this point I'd be down in there yanking and pulling on the quadrant to see if it may be loose... I could imagine a scenario where MAYBE it could slip under a lighter load than under a heavy one, if it is able to slip at all.. and when it slips it would of course allow the boat to round up...
but then i have a wild imagination

OK wild one! But if it was a slipping quadrant or the like, when the roundup was over the wheel wouldn't be in the normal position for straight ahead, would it? Seems like he would have noticed something like that.

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK wild one! But if it was a slipping quadrant or the like, when the roundup was over the wheel wouldn't be in the normal position for straight ahead, would it? Seems like he would have noticed something like that.

Jim

Well, if there is no mark or Turk's head or something... would one notice?
Seems like you'd probly feel something in it too though if it slipped. Depending on the size of the quadrant it might not take much of a slip to cause enough change in angle to affect it close hauled... but on a reach?... I got nothing...
So feel free to call me crazy, but under a load, the rudder post might bend slightly... enough to jam the otherwise slightly loose quadrant, whereas under a lesser load, that lack of very slight curve in the rudder post allows the quadrant to slip....
hell i dunno
do I hear laughter coming from SA?
entertaining thought puzzle though