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Old 04-04-2016, 08:39   #1
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What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-to-d

What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the
toe-rail-to-deck and hull joint (two sides)??

I used 3M 4000UV to caulk my teak toe rail both at the deck and the outside. The already-in-place toe rail sits on fiberglass. The seam of that joint, in and out (there's another on the hull side), is/was, depending on the state of disrepair, 4000UV. I need to replace it; 101 used to be the caulk of choice.

3M's 4000UV has failed miserably:

Makes a wet residue after rain or washing with plain water, sometimes
feeling about like freshly laid caulk

Peels off in strips, or

Falls off in chunks [segments of the caulk line, complete]

Crazes and chalks, and

perhaps others related to cleaning with water (only) which I don’t recall,
as the admiral does that.

I called the tech support desk; that guy gave me the number for the head
technical guy at 3M; every call resulted in being directed to voice mail,
however.

An extensive conversation, at long last after chasing each other around
missing each other, with 3M's head tech guy, Todd Jessen, established:

My preparation (remove all old caulk, light sand in the chamfered opening I
cut into it for deeper penetration into any gaps under the toe rail, blow
out, scrub with acetone and allow to dry, tape toe rail and deck/hull) was
as good as it gets

Application was perfect (caulk, immediately tool with caulk tool, lift
tape) - I had two people helping in order to do all this while it was fresh)

Cure time and environment was appropriate.

After which, he admitted that they had had a "formulation problem" with
4000UV that they were still trying to sort out.

He said, but has walked back that offer, that he'd provide a form for me to
take to allow a merchant to be reimbursed, and that I should redo it with a
competitor's product.

A variety of emails have passed, attempting to pin him down as to what we
should do about that. He's understandably reluctant to do that, but He
wasn't specific as to what to buy, other than saying he thought Sika had a
good product for that application.

But the fact that he told me not to go back with new 4000UV, free or not,
that they were still working out kinks in the formulation, says volumes.

That I've seen exactly my complaint in many places merely confirms that I am
neither alone, nor inadequate in my use of the product. That he'd go to the
length of telling me to buy a competitive product is honorable in the
extreme, but I'm a bit surprised that he didn’t leap on the chance to have
me present a good-fer (not even a mosquito on an elephant's butt in the
scheme of things for 3M) to make the ultimate tone of this a bit sweeter
("3M Tech Support Rocks! Details at 11!)

So, when we again reach shore, we'll be digging out all that soggy or
brittle stuff, and starting over with something else. At this time, the
'something else' is under review, as not much of anything sounds good or
without problems for the application we have (sealing a fiberglass-to-teak
joint).

L8R

Skip

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Old 04-04-2016, 09:50   #2
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

You are not alone, I am also left with a mess after using 4000UV. It cracked, separated from gelcoat and leaks.
I am thinking of using lifeseal now. 101 is a polysulfide and LifeCaulk seems a direct replacement; I use that and never a problem, but only as a bedding compound. In this case I have a visible seal for which 4000UV would have been the right product
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:04   #3
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

Thanks, Jedi,

Just to be clear, removing our toe rail will not happen in my lifetime.

I appreciate all the bedding solutions, and will use them elsewhere, perhaps.

But I need to know what to use to caulk an existing joint. That is, one which won't behave as above...



I can say without reservation, when I put down 101, it lasted beautifully, and were it not for some minor degradation about 9 years later which, in a fit of 'as long as we're at it, we might as well...' during our 2012 refit, caused me to dig it all out and go with the new, improved model, it would still be there I expect. Certainly all the deck hardware I bedded at the same time has what it started with...
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:44   #4
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

What was the timeframe to failure? I just rebedded a few hatches in 4000uv and it's been leak free for 2 months. Am I in the clear, or did it become an issue later than that.



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Old 04-04-2016, 11:50   #5
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

Less than 3 years, with very little travel, coincidentally.

Jessen says they have a formulation problem. Literally a minute ago I got an email that he was sending me a couple of different tubes of stuff to try.

I'm afraid to use them any place significant; I'd have to remove something to do so...
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:21   #6
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

As recommended here, I used Dow 795 sealant to seal some leaks between plexiglass and fiberglass. Wow! It was easier to apply and less messy than 101. Six months later it's as white as the day I put it on and sticking great. Bought a cartridge off Amazon for about the same price as 4000 UV.

I'm thinking of trying it for other applications with sun exposure. Has anyone tried this?

http://www.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/...fe801a7bbe.pdf
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Old 04-04-2016, 14:39   #7
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

LifeCalk is polysulfide the same as 3M 101. Have been using it since the '70s with great success. Super easy clean up with mineral spirits.

5200, 4200, Sikaflex are all polysulfide. Do not like working with the stuff and unused remainders in tube go off wasting it.
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Old 04-04-2016, 14:51   #8
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
LifeCalk is polysulfide the same as 3M 101. Have been using it since the '70s with great success. Super easy clean up with mineral spirits.
Thanks!

So far, this has been the most consistently recommended, and no negative reports.

TDS-440 and a couple of others have been mentioned, as well, positively...
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Old 04-04-2016, 14:55   #9
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

"5200, 4200, Sikaflex are all polysulfide. Do not like working with the stuff and unused remainders in tube go off wasting it."

I think you mean polyurethane



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Old 04-04-2016, 15:03   #10
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

http://www.boatlife.com/content/msds...Calk-White.pdf says:

PRODUCT NAME: Life Calk (White)
SYNONYMS: Polysulfide Sealant, Polysulfide Caulk

among other things...
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:12   #11
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
As recommended here, I used Dow 795 sealant to seal some leaks between plexiglass and fiberglass. Wow! It was easier to apply and less messy than 101. Six months later it's as white as the day I put it on and sticking great. Bought a cartridge off Amazon for about the same price as 4000 UV.

I'm thinking of trying it for other applications with sun exposure. Has anyone tried this?

http://www.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/...fe801a7bbe.pdf
795 is silicone, and in the right applications, I use it.

But not good for wood, and definitely not good that it's silicone and will ruin the joint forever if it has to be removed; if it doesn't seal the first time, nothing else will stick to it, etc...

But it's entirely stable in the sun based on our use. Wish the same were true of the 4000UV as it's supposed to be (along with all the failure mechanisms not supposed to happen, either)...
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:19   #12
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

I would use butyle tape as it will never harden and is very flexible. Was used by most boat manufacturers as it will not leak if installed properly. I know there are lots of new fangled products out there but sometimes the old ways are best. It is available in white,grey and black. Just my humble opinion on the matter.
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:21   #13
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDScott View Post
I would use butyle tape as it will never harden and is very flexible. Was used by most boat manufacturers as it will not leak if installed properly. I know there are lots of new fangled products out there but sometimes the old ways are best. It is available in white,grey and black. Just my humble opinion on the matter.
For anything I have to remove, that makes good sense.

For the toe rail, which absent a wreck which destroys it, it's not coming off in my lifetime

Which leaves me with finding a gap-filling waterproof, UV stable, caulk...
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:25   #14
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

And, from 3M's data sheet, I see where the problem is:

10.4. Conditions to avoid
Heat
10.5. Incompatible materials
Alcohols
Amines
Water

Formulation, my anchor. It's incompatible with two of the three things it sees all the time (the other being UV), heat and water. WTF???

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...9lxtD7SSSSSS--
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:38   #15
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Re: What caulk to use, now that 3M 101 is no longer available, to seal the toe-rail-

5200 and 4200 are polyurethane adhesives. Not polysulfides. 4200 is the lesser of 2 evils, as you can get it and what you attached apart. 5200 they finally made a solvent for to make the bond fail so you can separate the parts with out destroying them.!
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