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Old 07-04-2014, 21:16   #16
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Re: Steering Failure?!

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Having the ability to rig a backup, emergency rudder I think is the way to go. I thought like Andrew, just bolt a couple of gudgeons on the transom, toss a couple of pintles in the emergency spares bin and be ready to sacrifice some of the interior to rig a rudder.

But when I started looking for some really large gudgeons and pintles for a 42' boat I ran into a lot of comments on the problems with this idea. From those that have tried to do this they found it impossible to drop the pintles into the gudgeons with a rudder attached. Just think about it. If you have a rudder large enough to control your boat trying to hold it steady while rolling around at sea, the water will knock the rudder around so it will be impossible to line up the fittings.

The "experts" recommend a cassette style emergency rudder. Essentially the same concept but the pintles instead of attaching directly to a rudder are attached to large metal straps that are welded together to form a large rectangular box shape. You install the pintles into the gudgeons and the rudder slides down into the metal straps. So before the rudder is in the water and knocking back and forth you have passed through both boxes or cassettes and the wet part of the rudder then drops into the water already secured to the transom. Put a tiller on the top end and you're ready to go.
Thanks a lot, nicely explained.

That's certainly the Rolls-Royce approach (not so much a jury rig as a fully-functional backup)

And once a boat gets beyond a certain size it's probably just about the only viable route.

However the minimalist route can be pushed further up the size than you might at first think, by pre-addressing the potential line-up problems.

Here's some proven methods, some or even all of which can be combined:

1) Machine the gudgeons with a radius (in plan view) concentric with the bore, and add a couple of pegs on the pintle (at at least a 90 degree included angle) so that when the rudder is pushed forrard, the pegs engage with that guide surface on the gudgeon, causing the bores to self align

2) Drill the pivot bolts hollow, and machine the small end like a hollow-nose bullet, so that a piece of suitable cordage (or even flexible wire cable) can be prethreaded from below through both gudgeon and pintle (before the rudder is even hoisted over the rail) and then used to haul the bolts into position.

3) Predrill holes for two pairs (p&s) of control lines aft on the blade, one pair at the top and another near the waterline. Ideally you would fit a pair of saddles down where the transom meets the hull sides, p & s, at the waterline.

These, in combination with item 1) and handy-billies* for at least one of the lower pair (the upper pair can be taken to winches) will assist greatly in hauling the rudder forward into position. * (eg the vang)

4) fit an eyebolt to the top of the blade so a halyard or topping lift can be clipped on to take the weight while it's manoeuvred into position.

It's still a job you'd need to postpone until conditions improved. I would suggest lying to a drag device until then.

And if you possibly can do a cassette + dagger, then I agree that's a better option in every way (especially if you have vulnerable rudder/s ) It's a lot harder to design the rudder blade into the furniture, though, if you go that route.

I'm a big fan of transom hung dagger rudders for normal service on any boat with shallow draft capabilities, or any boat with twin rudders. Particularly in the latter case, I favour making the cassette housing in two parts so it can pivot and kick up. (More crudely I have seen the cassette simply be split aft, allowing the blade force its way out, busting some lashings)

I talked a friend into doing the more sophisticated two-part cassette idea on a boat with a single central transom-hung rudder, although I think he consented more to humour me than because he believed it would ever be needed. Less than a week into the maiden voyage they hit a log (in Cook Strait, IIRC - no place to be drifting rudderless - although that's the same vessel which carried the spare rudder ...)

Since then it has saved the rudder maybe seven times. There's a couple of nylon bolts which shear off when there's an impact and allow the cassette to swing up, and I originally supplied six pairs for spares, so that's how I know!
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Old 07-04-2014, 21:20   #17
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Re: Steering Failure?!

My belts and braces menu of steering backup is as follows: 1. Emergency tiller that attaches directly to the top of the rudder shaft to cover the case of linkage failures. 2. Eye bolts at the top of the rudder and a set of dyneema ropes with eyes and shackles to attach to these bolts and bring up the sides through the MPS blocks which just happen tone in the right place, to cover if the rudder shaft beaks. 3. An oversized rowlock that fits in a hole at the stern that lets me use the spinnaker pole with one of the companionway washboards as a Viking style rudder (starboard?) to cover if the barn door rudder falls off completely. 4. Currently building an aux rudder style windvane with T socket on top of the shaft to take the tiller from current emergency tiller setup. 5. Lots of good books on board that might explain what else to try if all these fail.

Matt
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Old 07-04-2014, 22:04   #18
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Here is our set-up from when we were installing everything...minus a photo of the rudder. The tiller extends aft and two lines run to each quarter. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use the below deck autopilot to steer the emergency tiller arm, and in turn, the emergency rudder.

Unfortunately, I forgot about the stern chainplate's bulkhead and I had to off center the entire set-up two inches....drives me crazy every time I see the stern of our boat!

The stern has the three mounts permanently installed, everything else is removed unless we are travelling offshore when everything but the rudder is installed.



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Old 07-04-2014, 22:37   #19
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Or if you have extra money buy a Hydrovane
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Old 07-04-2014, 22:49   #20
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Recently they removed their rudder, link goes over bringing the bridle attachments amidships to be able to control the steering better, and choosing the right amount of drag to not slow the boat excessively.

http://bermudarace.com/wp-content/up...t-a-Rudder.pdf

Years ago I made a spare rudder and put gudgeons in the transom. Now I have a Hydrovane to install before the next adventure.
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Old 07-04-2014, 22:54   #21
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Installed a Scanmar emergency rudder on a Mapleleaf 50.
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Old 07-04-2014, 23:28   #22
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Converted to tiller steering and installed an Auxillary Rudder WindPilot Pacific Plus self steering. No more pulleys, wire or wheels to mess with. The vane steers the boat most of the time with a little trim from the boats rudder.
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Old 07-04-2014, 23:43   #23
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
.... The vane steers the boat most of the time with a little trim from the boats rudder.
Roverhi, this bit has been worrying me a little, I have been wondering how effective the windvane rudder is as an auxilliary rudder in the event of a total rudder failure.

I understand that when used properly a windvane of this sort should only be making minor adjustments to the lateral trim, but in the event of a total rudder failure does it have enough grip to steer the boat without the assistance of a well trimmed main rudder?

Of course, I do understand the this is a piece of string question, many variables, boat, wind, waves etc... but just curious really as it may influence the overall size of the rudder I am building.

Matt
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Old 08-04-2014, 04:32   #24
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Re: Steering Failure?!

GILow,

If you can secure a broken rudder admidships, the auxiliary rudder windvane will work just fine for steering the boat. If your barn door is jammed athwartships, possibly not.

Ann
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Old 08-04-2014, 04:44   #25
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Re: Steering Failure?!

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GILow,

If you can secure a broken rudder admidships, the auxiliary rudder windvane will work just fine for steering the boat. If your barn door is jammed athwartships, possibly not.

Ann
Thanks Ann, that sounds reassuring. If the rudder jambs hard over then I guess it's a case of going over the side with the hacksaw.

Matt
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:23   #26
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Re: Steering Failure?!

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T
I will put a hole in the trailing edge of the rudder to which steering lines can be attached in case of the kind of rudder failure described above. The lines would then be controlled, and the boat steered, from the cockpit, using, in my case, the secondary sheet winches.
Totally forgot about this mod of several variations, having recalled it in the past....

In the middle of a rudder rebuild, and will do something similar... THANKS for the "build course change"

(and the extra work)

Will post a new thread with the mods and link it here ...
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:29   #27
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Here is our set-up from when we were installing everything...minus a photo of the rudder. The tiller extends aft and two lines run to each quarter. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use the below deck autopilot to steer the emergency tiller arm, and in turn, the emergency rudder.

Unfortunately, I forgot about the stern chainplate's bulkhead and I had to off center the entire set-up two inches....drives me crazy every time I see the stern of our boat!

The stern has the three mounts permanently installed, everything else is removed unless we are travelling offshore when everything but the rudder is installed.



Funster...

From the pics it looks like the mount is not centered ???

I kid.... Very nice setup man!

happy
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:52   #28
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Roverhi, this bit has been worrying me a little, I have been wondering how effective the windvane rudder is as an auxilliary rudder in the event of a total rudder failure.

I understand that when used properly a windvane of this sort should only be making minor adjustments to the lateral trim, but in the event of a total rudder failure does it have enough grip to steer the boat without the assistance of a well trimmed main rudder?

Of course, I do understand the this is a piece of string question, many variables, boat, wind, waves etc... but just curious really as it may influence the overall size of the rudder I am building.

Matt
The problem with the WindPilot Pacific Plus is not whether it will steer the boat all by it's lonesome but the boats rudder overcoming the straight ahead fixed position of the vane when it's in its stowed mode. The P35 is severely rudder challenged. It's a full keel center boarder and the rudder is not very effective. With the vane rudder stowed in its straight ahead position the turning circle is the envy of a container ship but not by much. After living with it for years finally figured out that manually inputting direction to the vane worked way better than the boats rudder to steer especially in tight spaces. FWIW, the WPPP vane comes in two sizes though the only difference may be rudder shaft length. Mine is the larger one that I shortened the shaft to fit my boat. It had previously steered a 43' boat. from the East Coast to SF. The PO said it steered their boat the whole way without issues. Of course he was trying to sell me the vane but seemed like an honest type.

Under sail with the vane working, sometimes crank in a bit of trim with the boats rudder. On the downwind sail to Hawaii, some boat's rudder helped to reduce the yawing from wave trains that weren't in line with wind direction but wasn't a big addition. I ran for 13 days DDW in relatively light, 6-10k relative, winds. That's the hardest conditions for a vane to steer and it did just fine. For the most part, leave the boat's rudder to fair into the slip stream or center amidships.

Having said the above, all boats are not created equal. A fin keel boat probably wouldn't have as great a problem maneuvering the boat with the vane in its stowed position. It also might be less directionally stable and increase the demand on the vane to hold a course.
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Old 08-04-2014, 14:43   #29
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Re: Steering Failure?!

Most long range trawler have emergency tillers that fits over the rudder post. We blew a hydraulic steering hose so I steered with the bow thruster until a temporary fix with Emergency Tape. Emergency tape is great stuff as it sticks to itself even when oily/wet. We carry extra fluid, tubing, and comprssion fitting for a perminent fix once we got back to the dock. But the bowthruster and emergency tape work!
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Old 08-04-2014, 14:59   #30
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Re: Steering Failure?!

My boat has a solid fiberglass tube from hull to cockpit that the rudderstock goes through, tiller steered. I have a spare tiller and tiller to rudderhead fitting. I don't have a spare rudderhead, but could just run the bolt through the rudder stock without the head if needed.

No bearings, no stuffing box, no quadrant, no wires, no hydraulics, and a 40 foot boat that's easy to steer unless overpowered, it doesn't like 25 degrees of heel.
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