Save the Planet!

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I know you don't want to hear it Pelagic, but this is the point I'm trying to make as well. We are an animal with certain evolutionary adaptions. We have behaved/are behaving exactly like all other species that have come before us. We are not in control. In fact, one of our major problems has been the delusion that we are in control, that we are somehow above Nature's confines. We're not. We're just the latest species to crawl out of the primordial muck, and we won't be the last.

Like you, I actually have a glimmer of hope that we could rise above other animals, and become the most unnatural species this planet has ever produced. I do think we carry a few interesting capabilities, the most significant being foresight (as you also point out). But sadly, I see no evidence that we are doing anything other than eating ourselves out of house and home ... just like all other species would do. Sorry if that doesn't fit within your game, but it is reality.

Mike, because we are having this discussion as are so many others in the world, I believe we ‘could’ rise above the other animals and solve the problem of the rampant destruction of our children’s future.

To simplify:
We humans are capable of both incredible self-sacrifice and destruction in the name of what I call;
“The Tribal 3 R’s” …. Race, Religion, Region.

Tribal leaders have completely conditioned their people to die in wars, blow themselves up in terrorist attacks, or accept whatever law and living condition they dictate under their ‘God and Country First’ dogma.

It is too powerful an ingrained mindset to politely lobby for conservation change amongst the delusional masses or self-serving tribal leaders.

My Camp 3 proposal is that; if you remove the tribal inhibiters, we can re-condition humanity to solve the problem thru fair and reasonable sacrifices by all.

Let me present this in another fictitious way:

A Prometheus type Alien Ship arrives on Earth and simultaneously transmits telepathically to every human being a video message that leaves no one in doubt about their capabilities.

1. You are destroying this Planet and we are giving you 100 years to repair it.
2. We have laid out an outline of what needs to be achieved and the ground rules of fair behavior
3. If after 25 years we see no real progress, we will repair the Earth ourselves and destroy your species.
4. If successful in 100 years, we will teach your children how to reach the stars and achieve their true potential

Now, with that hanging over the head of every individual parent, do you think that the bondage of Tribal conditioning would hold?

I don’t think so….. So it is my hope that one day those 3 R’s will be addressed by a universally accepted voice of reason.

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Mike, because we are having this discussion as are so many others in the world, I believe we ‘could’ rise above the other animals and solve the problem of the rampant destruction of our children’s future.

To simplify:
We humans are capable of both incredible self-sacrifice and destruction in the name of what I call;
“The Tribal 3 R’s” …. Race, Religion, Region.

Tribal leaders have completely conditioned their people to die in wars, blow themselves up in terrorist attacks, or accept whatever law and living condition they dictate under their ‘God and Country First’ dogma.

It is too powerful an ingrained mindset to politely lobby for conservation change amongst the delusional masses or self-serving tribal leaders.

My Camp 3 proposal is that; if you remove the tribal inhibiters, we can re-condition humanity to solve the problem thru fair and reasonable sacrifices for all.

Let me present this in another fictitious way:

A Prometheus type Alien Ship arrives on Earth and simultaneously transmits telepathically to every human being a video message that leaves no one in doubt about their capabilities.

1. You are destroying this Planet and we are giving you 100 years to repair it.
2. We have laid out an outline of what needs to be achieved and the ground rules of fair behavior
3. If after 25 years we see no real progress, we will repair the Earth ourselves and destroy your species.
4. If successful in 100 years, we will teach your children how to reach the stars and achieve their true potential

Now, with that hanging over the head of every individual parent, do you think that the bondage of Tribal conditioning would hold?

I don’t think so….. So it is my hope that one day those 3 R’s will be addressed by a universally accepted voice of reason.

Interesting... The masses are too delusional to lobby politely? Threats of annihilation for the non-compliant? The Promise of Utopia? You, the voice of Reason? And I ask who is delusional? Study very closely the second of your 3R's...Religion.....

[Lake-Effect]

We're halfway to Bangkok, algore is asleep, wrapped in an albino tiger skin, and I'm bored.

Originally Posted by sailpower

You claim that there might be a 200 year supply of oil. I have never heard such an optimistic projection but, if true, wouldn't that be a good thing? Apparently not as you go on to characterize its use as "wallowing".

You're kidding me. 200 years of oil is good news?

What - too soon to start developing alternatives, and maybe starting to conserve, so that maybe we get... 300 years of oil?

Sorry. Party on.

[fryewe]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Sorry. Party on.

Finally...a sensible approach.

[boatman61]

Would comment but this seems to be an all American conversation.. with only American input accepted..
and humourless input to boot..
Though I will say this...
Carbon Credits are a load of Bollox dreamed up by the Big polluters to justify/legalise..? their continued abuse..
More smoke and mirrors for the chattering masses..
Now I'll let you brainiac's get back to your copy and paste ******** and downloaded graphs... who needs independent thought and opinions huh...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Carbon Credits are a load of Bollox dreamed up by the Big polluters to justify/legalise..? their continued abuse.

Since forces conspire to prevent the creation of our socialist utopia, with algore as benevolent dictator, carbon trading is one of the few free-market-friendly options available to actually lower carbon output, but leaving private industry to sort out who does what and when.

(and whaddayamean no humour?)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Since forces conspire to prevent the creation of our socialist utopia, with algore as benevolent dictator, carbon trading is one of the few free-market-friendly options available to actually lower carbon output, but leaving private industry to sort out who does what and when.

(and whaddayamean no humour?)

So.. your saying that if India (don't want to be anti American) buys carbon credit from a third world low polluting heavily forested country with a corrupt government who pockets all the cash.. invests nothing into the infrastructure.. its okay for India to keep polluting at its current rate..
WTF... the only difference from no Carbon Credits.. is the pollution would be the same.. just that the politicians would be poorer..
Smoke and Mirrors... with a large amount of ********..

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Since forces conspire to prevent the creation of our socialist utopia, with algore as benevolent dictator, carbon trading is one of the few free-market-friendly options available to actually lower carbon output, but leaving private industry to sort out who does what and when.

(and whaddayamean no humour?)

How much is a Carbon Credit worth? Who decides? How do I monitor a ton of carbon? Who audits the monitor? I could go on and on about this fraud. Carbon derivatives anyone? Anyone?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Tar34

How much is a Carbon Credit worth? Who decides? How do I monitor a ton of carbon? Who audits the monitor? I could go on and on about this fraud. Carbon derivatives anyone? Anyone?

You're making my point. Why is carbon-trading any less ethical or logical than any of the other financial instruments that get traded profitably these days?

Unlike those others, carbon-trading holds at least the promise of reducing overall carbon output. It's no more subject to fraud than any other legal market....

(I know, I know...)

[senormechanico]

This whole thread is a lake effect stink having nothing to do with sailing.

At least that's what they tell me when they slap me.

I can't believe it's gone on this long.

Where are the moderators?

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You're making my point. Why is carbon-trading any less ethical or logical than any of the other financial instruments that get traded profitably these days?

Unlike those others, carbon-trading holds at least the promise of reducing overall carbon output. It's no more subject to fraud than any other legal market....

(I know, I know...)

One reason is the political nature of the credit. Extremely unstable, requires penalties and taxes to support it. It's traded as a commodity but can't really be measured or weighed and it would require a another level of government to administer. Bureaucrats dream.

[Tar34]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

This whole thread is a lake effect stink having nothing to do with sailing.

At least that's what they tell me when they slap me.

I can't believe it's gone on this long.

Where are the moderators?

The Moderators will step in when the "deniers" start to get the upper hand in the debate.

[Richard5]

The serious problem with this kind of discourse (I'm being generous) is some are apt to believe it thereby their perceptions shall come to influence their thoughts then the world. Never mind it originated with so much balderdash on the innerwebz.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You're making my point. Why is carbon-trading any less ethical or logical than any of the other financial instruments that get traded profitably these days?

Unlike those others, carbon-trading holds at least the promise of reducing overall carbon output. It's no more subject to fraud than any other legal market....

(I know, I know...)

Come on mate.. the markets are a fraud.. Coffee Futures.. Rice.. you name it... its all controlled.. a country steps outa line...
Lo and behold.. its market/export value plummets... a motion is made for a change detrimental to the Corporations/Pharmacuticals.. blow me if it isn't Filibustered out or in our case knocked back by bought and paid for Lords
you may think we are stupid being in Socialist Europe... (Ahahahahhhaaaaa McCarthy lives)
Capitalism.. like Socialism works just fine till its abused.. then the peasants kick ****..
What I'd like to know is.. what are the agenda's behind those supporting the '********'..

(I know.. I know)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Tar34

One reason is the political nature of the credit. Extremely unstable, requires penalties and taxes to support it. It's traded as a commodity but can't really be measured or weighed and it would require a another level of government to administer. Bureaucrats dream.

That's the thing, though. It would be a market. Players in the market would themselves insist on credible measurement to keep the value safeguarded. People trade gold, stocks, bonds, futures etc without ever seeing a scrap of metal or even paper. Stocks, CDOs, bonds, all have value because the players say it does and they are satisfied that the value is real. The US dollar is good because the US government says it is. Same for carbon emissions. That's the theory, anyway, and if you think that market is unworkable, don't hold any stock, cos it's even more abstract.

(heh. Lecture in capitalism from a utopian socialist elitist. Marx wept.)

G'night. And someone please give senor mechanico a hankie.