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Old 28-12-2013, 14:37   #91
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Re: Save the Planet!

Many of us do live our lives differently, some of us are deeply angry about how cavalier, some treat our home. The hubris displayed is galling. They are trying to start a gold mine at the head waters of many of the rivers that serve Bristol bay, which is home to one of the largest richest salmon runs in the world. Should the by products of this proposed mine reach these head waters, it will wipe out the salmon runs, and that is a very real possibility. The premise is, the mine will provide jobs for the locals, who live a subsistence lifestyle, which means they live off the land and what the land produces, have done so for generations. Of course the bait is new flat screen tvs, Iphones and the like etc... selling something to the locals that they don't need. If you want to have an impact, get up on your hind legs and stop the Pebble Mine from becoming a reality. Here is one good thing you all can do that will truly make the world a better place environmentally. Thanks in advance for your support.
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Old 28-12-2013, 14:43   #92
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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Many of us do live our lives differently, some of us are deeply angry about how cavalier, some treat our home. The hubris displayed is galling. They are trying to start a gold mine at the head waters of many of the rivers that serve Bristol bay, which is home to one of the largest richest salmon runs in the world. Should the by products of this proposed mine reach these head waters, it will wipe out the salmon runs, and that is a very real possibility. The premise is, the mine will provide jobs for the locals, who live a subsistence lifestyle, which means they live off the land and what the land produces, have done so for generations. Of course the bait is new flat screen tvs, Iphones and the like etc... selling something to the locals that they don't need. If you want to have an impact, get up on your hind legs and stop the Pebble Mine from becoming a reality. Here is one good thing you all can do that will truly make the world a better place environmentally. Thanks in advance for your support.
Got a FB/Twitter page for that...??
It'd reach wider and be more read and acted on than CF
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Old 28-12-2013, 15:31   #93
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Re: Save the Planet!

I haven't looked, I am sure there is. I've been involved locally and haven't looked it up on the internet. I'll dig around some and report back.
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Old 28-12-2013, 15:57   #94
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Re: Save the Planet!

I never get to these threads in time to say anything before they're closed so maybe this is my chance.

I'm fascinated by people's opinions on overpopulation and related subjects like global warming and pollution, but many of them always seem nuts to me. Here's one: The problem isn't overpopulation, it's overuse of resources. That's true, I guess, but how far should we take this idea to accommodate the people having twelve-child families? Should we all learn to live in shipping crates? And does this mean that it's okay to have an overpopulated country as long as everyone is living in poverty?

Just as the Catholic church was against birth control so they could amass a bigger "flock" we have to understand that overpopulation is better for corporations too--cheaper labor, more customers. As someone already pointed out, when there are enough people in the world, modified grains made by Corps like Monsanto will be the only chance of possibly feeding all of them. And, of course, with all of us reliant on "the system" for food and supplies, any kind of meaningful rebellion against that system is impossible since it will just lead to mass starvation.

"Countdown: Our Last, Best Hope for a Future on Earth" by Alan Weisman was a great and very informative read on this subject and I highly recommend it. There are a lot of reasons to be hopeful out there, too. Did you know that Iran has a negative population growth rate? I certainly didn't. Thanks for listening.
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Old 28-12-2013, 17:30   #95
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Dogfish. I think your analysis is quite faulty. Neither corporations or the Catholic Church are in favour of copulation (!) to increase their flock.

The fact is that its is a proven that education and emancipation of the female population is a key to reducing the birthrate

Furthermore food production is not the issue. Current farming methods applied worldwide would be more then sufficient to feed the expected population growth twice over.

The primary problem is the consumption of irreversible resources by wealthy countries in pursuit of increasing hedonistic lifestyles without any thought to the consequences. The issue is not poor people or poor countries.

Unless we the wealthy learn to control our desire for material riches without thought to the cost to the planet , we are doomed. Change both at law and rule change level , price controls etc as well as individual action may mitigate the effects. Bit society is going to have to get tough

By the way I love the idea sailing away on a boat can protect you from anything !!!, such naivety

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Old 28-12-2013, 18:50   #96
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Re: Save the Planet!

I think quality comes into play. Look at what's choking the landfills. It's cheap short term junk. Junk that had to be mined refined and shipped. Then it has to be disposed of. You will find all kinds of junk in the lower/mid class as they strive to find something that validates the perceived value of things. Validation of purpose and worth can also be found by reproduction. For most of us here we can see and experience a larger world.
Not so much for a larger piece of the population. Education, exposure and opportunity will lead us out of this mess.
The dollar and good choices drive all. When I can replace 250 watt metal halides with 75 watt LEDs for 300 bucks that has value. The cost To replacing short life bulbs and the ballasts makes this a good choice. Good for me and good for the environment.
I keep looking at cost and good return value. Yep I'm in facilities management . One point if view.
Still struggle with what we are throwing away. All metal us recyled plastic recycled food waste is sent to compost facilities. Still the dumpster fills?
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:56   #97
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Re: Save the Planet!

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I think quality comes into play. Look at what's choking the landfills. It's cheap short term junk. Junk that had to be mined refined and shipped. Then it has to be disposed of. You will find all kinds of junk in the lower/mid class as they strive to find something that validates the perceived value of things. Validation of purpose and worth can also be found by reproduction. For most of us here we can see and experience a larger world.

Not so much for a larger piece of the population. Education, exposure and opportunity will lead us out of this mess.
The dollar and good choices drive all.
I think that's pretty spot on. Buying quality also helps create better jobs.
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:06   #98
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Re: Save the Planet!

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. fine, it's your right. But for heaven's sake keep your negative opinions to yourself. STFU. There's work to be done and you're just discouraging those who have to do it.
Any group of people that thinks their views/idea are not open for inspection/depate are dangerous. Be careful in wanting people to shut up and get out of the way. Today you are asked, tomorrow you are pushed.
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:11   #99
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Re: Save the Planet!

Dogfish,
Glad you had a chance to say your piece. I'm not as hopeful as you, but I think your analysis is spot on.

Good post.
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:14   #100
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Unless we the wealthy learn to control our desire for material riches without thought to the cost to the planet , we are doomed.

Such naivety
Exactly...and since owning a boat is obviuosly a wealthy luxury that 99.99% of the worlds population can never have we should do what, ban it as selfish?
Do we make cruising boats illegal due to the world's evil 1%-ers that lust after them with no regard for others living in Poverty in China who made their cheap stainless shackles and boat hardware at slave wages?

Who decides just what "desire for material riches" is too much"?
By western standards or 3rd world standards?
Who decides what is too costly to the enviroment or the worlds recources?
By Western stadnards of 3rd world standards?

It would seem to me that a better solution than bringing everyone down to the same miserable level, would be to give the people the tools and education to bring themselves and cultures up. More people have been raised out of Poverty and more environmental messes have been cleaned up through the forces of Capitalism than any other force or idea in the world. Yet....we are told today that Capitalism is the problem. Interesting that the solution always seems to be ceeding power to the Masterminds and elite to tell the average folks what is good for them?
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:44   #101
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Re: Save the Planet!

That's upside down thinking. The waste train is coming from the mega chain stores. That infrastructure supports that 1 percent. Why are these good people spending their one free day not working shopping for things at Wally target kmarts.....? Is it they need something or they are just wanting?
I think its a sickness that has some root in instant gratification. Not sure how you stop this. A culture shift with values.
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:44   #102
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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post

Exactly...and since owning a boat is obviuosly a wealthy luxury that 99.99% of the worlds population can never have we should do what, ban it as selfish?
Do we make cruising boats illegal due to the world's evil 1%-ers that lust after them with no regard for others living in Poverty in China who made their cheap stainless shackles and boat hardware at slave wages?

Who decides just what "desire for material riches" is too much"?
By western standards or 3rd world standards?
Who decides what is too costly to the enviroment or the worlds recources?
By Western stadnards of 3rd world standards?

It would seem to me that a better solution than bringing everyone down to the same miserable level, would be to give the people the tools and education to bring themselves and cultures up. More people have been raised out of Poverty and more environmental messes have been cleaned up through the forces of Capitalism than any other force or idea in the world. Yet....we are told today that Capitalism is the problem. Interesting that the solution always seems to be ceeding power to the Masterminds and elite to tell the average folks what is good for them?
You miss my point. Raising everyone up to the same level of education , wealth etc generates the same over consumption of scare resources. This can be clearly seem in the emergence of the large Chinese middle classes and their desire for luxury goods.

It's not a question of poverty or wealth , its that in the west ( and elsewhere ) wealth has spurred the lust that depletes resources and creates pollution.

Hence we need in the future to introduce self discipline or impose such discipline in order to allow all those people " capitalism " is about to raise out of poverty ( oh really ) to have a fair share of the resources.

The fact is , given a fixed amount of resources , if others want a share of it , you have to give up some. Otherwise we deplete such resources and nobody has any.

In other words , we've had it good for a long time now , now others want to play with our toys and hence we have to share since we can't make new ones. That's what we have to learn

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Old 28-12-2013, 19:48   #103
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Who decides just what "desire for material riches" is too much"?
By western standards or 3rd world standards?
Who decides what is too costly to the enviroment or the worlds recources?
By Western stadnards of 3rd world standards?
Well ... the planet decides. Not in some Gaia-gonna-get-ya sort of way. Simply in the basic idea of ecosystem carrying capacity that all animals -- including humans -- must live within. By any number of measure we are eating into the capital of the Earth. We are not living on the sustainable "interest" of Nature, but are destroying the foundation of planetary ecosystems that sustain us.

The facts are well known. If everyone lived the way we do in North America, we'd need multiple Earths. People in the developed countries contain ~1 billion of the 7 billion people on the planet, yet we account for the vast majority of resource use and pollution production. North Americans use twice as much energy/capita than western Europeans, who use many times more than the global average. We do this b/c we have the power and the wealth to shape global systems to serve us.

Education of everyone is essential, but we will cannot sustain a global system of extreme haves and have-nots. Rich westerners like you and I must learn to use a lot less of everything. This means we must accept a significant decline in our current physical standard of living. Only then can we begin to address global environmental and resource issues.

... but as I say, I have near zero hope that we in the rich world will willingly do this. Which is (partly) why I'm going sailing .
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:50   #104
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Re: Save the Planet!

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The fact is , given a fixed amount of resources , if others want a share of it , you have to give up some. Otherwise we deplete such resources and nobody has any.
That has been the cry of some for years....but new resources and technology always seem to come up and save the day, so I don't accept the premise of runing out of recourses...not a all.

Remember we were going to run out of food....problem now solved.
Then remember we only had enough oil left for a few years...new technology comes up...problem solved.

The Pie is not fixed....it can easily be grown by those that have the desire.
The easier approach is to say the world is over, we are out of food, oil, energy, room, air, Tab soda. The world is not static, why assume it is?

I'm just looking at history and seeing that every time we "run out" of something, Ka Paw...we find a solution because we need to. The population Bom myth was wrong because it assumed static technology, and the predictions of doom and gloom agian will be proven wrong because they also assume a static "pie" where new recources, technology, and inventions come into play.

Exciting times to be alive...you can either fear them or embrace and look forward to them.
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Old 28-12-2013, 19:54   #105
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As long as the mantra is 'Growth' your gonna have folk wanting the latest model of everything...
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