Save the Planet!

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by conachair

Or looking at it zoomed out a bit, the major problem is that the primate we know as homo sapiens is no more consciously in control of its development as a species globally long term than plankton

Conachair,

once again I find we agree on a lot.

Unfortunately spot on.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by conachair

Or looking at it zoomed out a bit, the major problem is that the primate we know as homo sapiens is no more consciously in control of its development as a species globally long term than plankton

That's my thought. Obviously we have some serious thinkers here on CF but no matter, Pogo was right: we are the problem. Even when we try to do good, we do harm. We destroy villages to save them. Think Pruitt-Igoe instead of Ben Tre.

The population numbers game is just a game. I guess the possibility exists that 11 billion could be fed but the reality is the 7.2B now aren't all being fed. And as populations continue to expand in areas that can't support life, Las Vegas and Los Angeles come to mind here at home but we can all fill in our favorite absurdity, resources stretch ever thinner.

I had to clean my plate at mealtimes as a kid cuz "children were starving in Africa." That was 70 years ago. That little bit of logic didn't help the Africans AFAIK, but possibly contributed to enable a nation of fat people.

I don't want to argue with anyone and am not equipped to joust with most of you truly bright folks on here. But the way things are suggests to me that humans will never be able to work together well enough to solve the problems we have.

I suspect that puts me in Camp 3 or possibly 4, or more likely Bellevue: Dangerous, Draconian, Dastardly button pushers. Sorry Israel, but I'm turning the Middle East back to molten glass. Yep, doin' it just for the oil and to enforce the moves back to personal and sustainable transportation. Trains not trucks kinda thing.

Attention: Nation-states that are raping the oceans. Scrap your fleets and desist, or become molten whatever. Gonna be subsistence fishing from here on.

Say goodbye to any large concentrations of people that can't support themselves. No one rides for free. Don't be in D.C., or LA or Chicago or Philly, or NYC the day I take over. I like Chinese food but say goodbye to China altogether, along with the Indian sub-continent, and Sub-Saharan Africa. Here's looking at you Indonesia. The French and Russians have to go just because. Boom. Boom.

Well, that's my first morning. After a healthy, nutritious lunch, I will have my Spec Ops teams remove all signs of religion worldwide. People may
worship as they please at home but no more talking about it publically. I too will cringe at the demolition of the Sistine Chapel but religion is a bad thing. Bad things gotta go.

ZPG isn't good enough now. US welfare has only been around, what? since the 60's? Don't need the Tarot to see the future there.

Heard on NPR the other day that immigrant migrants will soon have to wait 3 weeks before filing for unemployment. Dang, that's inconvenient. That's probably how long it takes to print the money. Once China's gone, we can start over on the national debt.

You are welcome!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by conachair

Or looking at it zoomed out a bit, the major problem is that the primate we know as homo sapiens is no more consciously in control of its development as a species globally long term than plankton

I know you don't want to hear it Pelagic, but this is the point I'm trying to make as well. We are an animal with certain evolutionary adaptions. We have behaved/are behaving exactly like all other species that have come before us. We are not in control. In fact, one of our major problems has been the delusion that we are in control, that we are somehow above Nature's confines. We're not. We're just the latest species to crawl out of the primordial muck, and we won't be the last.

Like you, I actually have a glimmer of hope that we could rise above other animals, and become the most unnatural species this planet has ever produced. I do think we carry a few interesting capabilities, the most significant being foresight (as you also point out). But sadly, I see no evidence that we are doing anything other than eating ourselves out of house and home ... just like all other species would do. Sorry if that doesn't fit within your game, but it is reality.

[cburger]

Come up with a real solution to the problems with the Fukushima Nuclear disaster.

36 Signs The Media Is Lying To You About How Radiation From Fukushima Is Affecting The West Coast - Banoosh

[Stugots]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Yes you are right historically the 3rd world has had more babies but we are changing things by huge food aid programs.

I think you're dramatically oversimplifying things. Food aid is not causing a higher birth rate in developing countries.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

And just who is going to educate women in Muslim countries??

Its not the women in the world who need the educating.. its the men.. the women are well aware of the problem.. they're the ones who have to deal with the pain, blood and heartache..
Men just sit around playing cards or pretending to be important...
Also.. its ironical that this post above drew no **** comments about religion.. but when christianity was vaguely alluded to..
Oh My...

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by cburger

Come up with a real solution to the problems with the Fukushima Nuclear disaster.

36 Signs The Media Is Lying To You About How Radiation From Fukushima Is Affecting The West Coast - Banoosh

I'll keep an eye on the water at my dock to see if it glows in the dark.

[hpeer]

POSTED FOR BLUE CRAB

Randy Newman - Lets Drop the Big One
(From his album - Sail Away)

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Algore needs to practice what he preaches.

Lake Effect,
Algore needs to PRACTICE WHAT HE PREACHES. Plain and simple.
He is a hyppocrate of the first order and a charlatain.

I practice what I preach, although I'm no tree hugger. I just do what's practical.
Solar on the boat. No diesel for heat, electricity, hot water from the inverter.
Solar takes care of hot water, lighting watermaker etc. Lithium batteries. Aerogel insulation. It's a combination.
Home's got solar/wind/grid tie with 700 aH 24 volt Lithiums. Triple pane windows.
Simple but comfortable needs.
I drive an old Geo Metro.

Does Algore do any of these things? I doubt it.

I walk the walk.
DO YOU???

It doesn't f'ing matter what _I_ do. Who made you referee? I might equally say your argument is worthless cos you can't even spell.

Mike O'R nailed this - the only winner in your game would be a homeless guy eating weeds and sleeping under recycled cardboard.

Or more precisely:

Monty Python - Four Yorkshiremen - YouTube

Why do you hate freedom, free speech, and people who are successful in life? And how do you know exactly what Al Gore does to manage his energy usage and carbon footprint? Cos you don't, right?

In fact, you don't even know what he "preaches", do you? What does he preach that he himself isn't living up to? Be specific, quote, show links.

Hang up that childish little rant.There's lots more real stuff to work with.

[hpeer]

Mike said

My simple point is that we can and should do something about our contributions to the problem, instead of pointing fingers "over there" and saying they need to get their population under control first. All the while we keep burning and and consuming way beyond what the planet can sustain, or what would be considered fair by any standard of equity.

Somewhere else this idea came up and struck me as OK.

Someone, Sierra Club, Audubon, BBB, City of Miami (all the above?) should sue the Federal Government for failure to protect us. I don't what exact law to use, surely we have enough on the books to find two or three appropriate.

Hash this out in the courts. Have the Mayor of Miami come in and testify that his city is gonna be wiped out.

Surely if this is as dire as is said, and I think it is, then such action is appropriate.

If Obama is such a big fan of fighting Climate Change (Ha!) then he will not fight the law suit.

No matter how you cut it, it would be a good debate to have. Have both sides bring in their experts and have a go at it.

Ditto in Canada, GB, France, Germany, etc.

But it kinda makes you think, why has this not occurred already?
......................................

Some of the reinsureres such as MunicRE are pretty cc aware and are making contingencies. I listed to a round table of their risk assessment report and they made the case that, because of the scale of the problem, no insurance agency can cover the risks, just too big. Thus governments are becoming the insurer of last resort. Think of New Orleans and New York. Yet governments are not allocating monies to cover these risks in a reasonable manner, which they (the insurers) see as a big risk.

So here you see an action that is being presented by a large institutional organization, to change the way governments fund risk, due to climate change. But nothing on how to STOP it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Someone, Sierra Club, Audubon, BBB, City of Miami (all the above?) should sue the Federal Government for failure to protect us. I don't what exact law to use, surely we have enough on the books to find two or three appropriate.

Yes, good idea hpeer. In fact, this has been tried in various ways, and is continuing to this day. Check out this wiki list for examples. The limitation with this approach is that a civil law suit can only address a specific harm, and that harm must be directly measurable and accrue to a real or legal person. But it is definitely something that we can do, or help support by joining certain organizations.

Originally Posted by hpeer

Some of the reinsureres such as MunicRE are pretty cc aware and are making contingencies. I listed to a round table of their risk assessment report and they made the case that, because of the scale of the problem, no insurance agency can cover the risks, just too big. Thus governments are becoming the insurer of last resort. ... So here you see an action that is being presented by a large institutional organization, to change the way governments fund risk, due to climate change. But nothing on how to STOP it.

Interesting point Hpeer. I suggest this supports my (and others') thesis that we are ill equipped as a species to address this kind of wide-scale, non-focus crisis -- especially when the solutions all have to do with us scaling back our use of resources.

Look, I don't want to come across as defeatist. I'm definitely not saying we should give in to this existential angst, and simply do nothing. Just b/c a fight is unwinnable, doesn't mean it's not worth fighting. If you won't or can't be a leader (and yes, we need leaders too), then you can change your small part of the world. We can all do some things to reduce our burden on the planetary ecology. Here in the rich world we can all, individually, do a lot. None of this is dramatic or demands you be a eco-hero.

We can:

• Choose not to have children.
• Move into a small home.
• Move into a small town.
• Get a small car, drive less, or better still, have no car.
• Use public transit when you can.
• Don't travel far for vacation, and when you do travel, use the train or bus.
• Never fly.
• Purchase less.
• Purchase local.
• Work less (which goes well with using less).
• Those with financial wealth can move their resource into local banks/credit unions.
  - Support companies that are doing sustainable and useful things.
  - Most of all, don't chase short-term gain over long-term sustainability.
• Fix things when they break, even when it costs more.
• ... and a thousand other things.

And since this is CF, I do believe a small, self-sufficient sailboat is a good way to achieve a small life. Living on a small boat can be a way of reducing our impact on this planet.

[captain58sailin]

I went in search of a matriarchal society in hopes of finding a place that was better run than the patriarchal models. And I found: "
Deep in south-west China lies Lugu Lake, a place known as the Kingdom of Women. Here you’ll find the 40,000-strong Mosuo, one of the world’s last matrilineal societies. As befits a culture with no word for ‘father’ or ‘husband’, Mosuo women do not marry. Instead, they take as many lovers as they wish, cherry-picking them from within the tribe and inviting them for secret evening trysts (usually after the men have spent all day slaughtering pigs, while females sort out household finances)." from Metro Web site.
I was sorta hoping there were more examples. One of Robert Heinlein's books describes this, and I thought that tracing the blood line through the mother would be a lot more dependable than tying it to the sperm donor. Frankly men haven't done such a hot job of solving the world's problems.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

So, basically, Rich, he's kicking your ass. He's kicking everyone's ass when it comes to carbon footprint. You could live in a damp cave with no power, eating only cave moss, and Al Gore is still the better environmental steward than you. Especially when you tell people there's no need to change.

Actually that would only be true if Algore himself lived in a cave eating moss while he was achieving these great things that you admire.

He could practice what he preaches and really lead by example but he doesn't.

It's about as inconsistent as him saying that we can buy "carbon credits" to offset our excesses. The reality is that you could cut back on the excesses and still buy the credits if they were really that meaningful.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Come on LE, we know how to reduce population numbers without resorting to coercive techniques. Get people out of poverty, and educate them, especially the women. There's lots of available evident (facts) to show this works. Of course, to do this we need to raise the standard of living for most people on this planet. And the only way we can do this, and not accelerate the destruction of our biosphere, is by lowering ours.

Ta da! Problem solved.

... did I mention how likely I think it is that we're going to do any of this?

Who is the “we” and how is this “we” going to achieve what you say they will achieve?

In the US billions have already been spent on the “War on Poverty” and yet there is still poverty.

Education is already free for the students and easily obtained no matter how poor but testing indicates that it is less and less effective in producing a quality or useful education in grades 1-12 and that lots of kids are not participating in it. This is odd because the really smart and superior people are in charge of it.

So, if billions of dollars already spent didn’t do it and the really smart superior people can’t actually educate, how would that continued approach produce, problem solved?

RE lowering the standard of living:

How do you propose that the non-elite “we” or “us“, if you will, lower our standard of living and how much lowering would be required? Would this be voluntary or require elite “we” control? Would the elite "we" also have to lower their living standard or would just the participation of the non-elite "we" suffice? Etc.

RE: population control:

Whatever number is selected as optimal, the arguments all seem to assume that what exists and would remain is a homogenous mass of like thinking people. When has this ever been the case? Recognizing this truth, how could it ever be assumed that all would see the same solution or ever come together to produce any universal solution?

Finally, it seems to this non-elite "we" that these discussions couched as environmental concerns are really just about creating the “To each according to his ability, to each according to his need” utopia that some find so appealing. For some reason it hasn’t ever worked has it?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Actually that would only be true if Algore himself lived in a cave eating moss while he was achieving these great things that you admire.

He could practice what he preaches and really lead by example but he doesn't.

It's about as inconsistent as him saying that we can buy "carbon credits" to offset our excesses. The reality is that you could cut back on the excesses and still buy the credits if they were really that meaningful.

The whole "Al Gore needs to sit perfectly still and emit 1 megawatt/hr of usable energy before we'll believe him about conservation" argument is ...juvenile. Really. Grow up people.

Not least because, like the others, you don't actually know what his personal action has been. You only know "rich guy, big house". What - rich people don't know from energy conservation? They don't try to save energy and money? Clue: there are actually guys who got rich by inventing things that have improved energy efficiency. Are they suddenly hypocrites too?

As I asked of the others - prove it. List out the things Al Gore has "preached", then indicate the activity/behaviour that makes him a hypocrite. Because of the mountains of bs around this whole argument, links and cites would be deeply appreciated.

Many economists and energy advocates have praised the concept of trading carbon credits. Take that up with them.