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Old 29-12-2013, 20:07   #166
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
... I could go on.
You could...but I don't think it would be as good as my Evolutionary Biology Class. The vast majority of species that have ever lived on the planet died off long before evil man was here to cause it. Facts are facts from the geological records...even if they don't fit todays latest panic games. A huge problem the environmental movement is that it always feels the need to exaggerate claims. Then they give the other side a hammer to hit them over the head with and the people in the middle don't trust either side when they see these games being played.

Honestly, I will take the doomsday folks more seriously when they give up their cars, use of electricity from the grid and 1%-er Yachts and Boats to save the world. Al Gore seems pretty happy with his huge house, Private Jets, as so most of the Doomsdayers. If they don't even believe their hype enough to change their own lifestyles....well....then you know it is BS.

The folks lecturing us on the wealth disparity, need to propose another economic model that has not already been proven to fail by studying history and lets give it a go. But that is the problem...as bad and "unfair" as our system is now...it is also the best one going for protecting individual freedom. Without individual freedom...the collective and Society fails and falls apart. Their is no Utoipa and it is written somewhere that the poor will always be with us, and even after Trillions spent on the fake War on Poverty, they are still here.

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Relax. I'm not expecting alot of buy-in from a bunch of older white male yacht-owners.
Then sadly we see the posting of racist attacks on the white guys. I would have thought the posters on CF were above such racist sterotypes and posts. What next attacking Mexicans, Blacks, Jews or Italians?
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Old 29-12-2013, 20:46   #167
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Re: Save the Planet!

Those worried about income inequality and the rich getting richer, of course there is nothing stoping you from sending in extra tax revenue to the Federal, State or Local Governments to spread the wealth around. Take that tax refund check, that Obamacare subsidy (aka welfare check), or that Home loan deduction and send it back with a note that you don't think it is fair that you have all that you have from working hard and busting your rear end......

Crickets.....the guy making $20K, $50K, $75K, $100K, $250K, $500K or above...how many will send the money they earned through their labor to the Government above the Tax rate so that the guy with less than he has can have some of his spread around wealth? The Class Welfare argument is the oldest game in the book used by tyrants to gain control over a population. Remember ANYONE with a Cruising Boat or Pleasure Boat has MORE than 99.9% of the people on this planet in terms of wealth....are we all evil or did we earn what we have? Did we hold down the little guy when we bought our boat?


We gotta get this thread back to sailing.....
If more people started living like live aboard cruisers...their carbon footprint would shrink, their consumption would fall for trash trinkets, and the world would be a better place.
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Old 29-12-2013, 20:59   #168
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pirate Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Then sadly we see the posting of racist attacks on the white guys. I would have thought the posters on CF were above such racist sterotypes and posts. What next attacking Mexicans, Blacks, Jews or Italians?
Naah... they've all been done by the white guys... maybe its payback time..

Whats the betting someone takes this seriously
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Old 29-12-2013, 21:16   #169
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
Just picked this up off a FB page I subscribe to. It seemed timely.

"If changing the world is your fight, it will exhaust you. But if it's just your way of being, it will be effortless! So promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate."
I like that Doodles as it does echo my own commitment to have never added to the population and to have maintained a small footprint in life.

I realize New Year brings out this emotional introspection and while Lake Effect might think my thoughts are too pessimistic about saving the planet, he has missed the point.

You can only change the world for the better by example, not thru force.
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Old 29-12-2013, 21:42   #170
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Honestly, I will take the doomsday folks more seriously when they give up their cars, use of electricity from the grid and 1%-er Yachts and Boats to save the world. Al Gore seems pretty happy with his huge house, Private Jets, as so most of the Doomsdayers. If they don't even believe their hype enough to change their own lifestyles....well....then you know it is BS.
A sophomoric fallacy - Al Gore's message is bogus cos he isn't wearing sackcloth and freezing in the dark. etc. Right. Where did you study science, again?
Quote:

The folks lecturing us on the wealth disparity, need to propose another economic model that has not already been proven to fail by studying history and lets give it a go. But that is the problem...as bad and "unfair" as our system is now...it is also the best one going for protecting individual freedom. Without individual freedom...the collective and Society fails and falls apart. Their is no Utoipa and it is written somewhere that the poor will always be with us, and even after Trillions spent on the fake War on Poverty, they are still here.
I'd call it a straw man, but it's too weak even for that. Who here has said we need to give up individual freedom? Who's calling for a socialist utopia? Cripes - the merest suggestion of people acting in concert for a common goal and the self-satisfied peanut gallery start screeching "they's soshulests!!!"
Quote:

Then sadly we see the posting of racist attacks on the white guys. I would have thought the posters on CF were above such racist sterotypes and posts. What next attacking Mexicans, Blacks, Jews or Italians?
I'm an older white guy with a boat. I hang out at marinas. Most pleasure boats in North America are owned by white guys middle-aged or older. Polling already shows what political direction most older white affluent guys skew. If the shoe fits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic
You can only change the world for the better by example, not thru force.
You left out leadership, education and discourse. Not that I have any claim on being any good at any of those. But I do know that more is required than simply walking the talk. And of course there's the Al Gore BS as mentioned above.
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Old 29-12-2013, 21:59   #171
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post

You left out leadership, education and discourse. Not that I have any claim on being any good at any of those. But I do know that more is required than simply walking the talk. ....
Being Canadian you might be familiar with this from Leonard Cohen...

"They locked up a man for trying to rule the world,
the fools, they locked up the wrong man"
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Old 30-12-2013, 04:49   #172
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Managing the economy to serve society, instead of letting unrestrained capitalism gut societies.

When resources were thought inexhaustible, unfettered capitalism definitely worked. Look at railroad building in North America. (and sorry, First Peoples). But now that resources are known to be finite, and companies have wrung out just about every possible efficiency in their processes, the remaining source of high growth (outside of genuine innovation blips like the Internet) is... cannibalism. Companies are now creating profit by stripping wealth from people. And even each other. The 2008 economic crisis is exhibit A for what unregulated markets will do to society.

What's the alternative (to financial disparity and economic collapse)? A re-examination of our economic principles in the face of resource limitations and destabilizing iniquities. A conscious decision that the economy must serve society and not the other way around. A free market that can generate growth within resource and ethical constraints.

Relax. I'm not expecting alot of buy-in from a bunch of older white male yacht-owners.
That all sounds very high and nobel but who or what is going to bring it about? Remember the governments, the corporations and the society are all made up of individuals who act independently. The entities don't make "conscious decisions", the individuals do. It's very easy to say .. this needs to happen and that needs to happen .. or to blame it on our leaders, corporations or governments. We are the leaders, the corporations and the governments. As the famous saying goes .. "we have met the enemy and it is us." It all comes back to individual behavior. But we tend to see the problem as "out there".
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Old 30-12-2013, 04:58   #173
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Re: Save the Planet!

No one wants to look in the mirror and say, I am part of the problem. The person you are tomorrow, rests on the foundation of what you do today. People have been sold a bill of goods. "Here buy this year's latest widget and you will be the envy of all your friends." And so on, Krupps used a similar strategy before WW1. The only way you escape is to say, "I am happy with the widget I still have, it still works and does what I need it to do." Then take a real good look at what widgets you have in your life and determine which of them you really don't need and get rid of them.
"Blow up your TV, throw away your papers, move to the country and build you a home." John Denver. Of course if everyone did that then the country would become a city, and there you are all over again.
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Old 30-12-2013, 05:00   #174
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Re: Save the Planet!

I think a move away from the capitalist versus "something" argument is needed. Even if we just start tackling pollution in our own countries. We are wealthy enough to afford to divert a proportion of that wealth to enforce and cleanup such historical messes, and we are educated and have enough regulatory power to enforce rules that prevent such pollution from happening again.

Is it saving the world , dunno , but its a start

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Old 30-12-2013, 06:25   #175
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Re: Save the Planet!

There are already enough environmental laws on the books in the states, what is needed is active enforcement, which isn't happening, every year the EPA's budget gets smaller, depending on the administration.
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Old 30-12-2013, 06:33   #176
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I thought of this thread yesterday when I was contacted by a nut about my CL listing.

I quoted him in the ad, good fun. Empowering the government is just giving away you personal freedom and giving power to yahoos.

http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/zip/4233269122.html
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Old 30-12-2013, 07:26   #177
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Re: Save the Planet!

Just a thought, not meant to leave anyone off the hook personally ......

There are some serious researchers who think we have NO free will. I won't try to explain, their research is interesting. Look it up.

Personally, I'm not convinced. I think that on an individual level we have SOME degree of free will. Not much, but some.

Now there are other researchers (E. O. Wilson) who think that we evolved in response to two forces; personal survival and group (tribe, herd, colony) survival. This is called "eusocial" where groups become highly organized and compete with other groups of the same species for survival, and evolution. He makes a good case.

Consider that humanity is a eusocial critter, our individual groups take on a personality and intelligence of their own.

My idea is that while individuls have some free will, these larger groups we belong to have virtually NO free will. Statistically, acting in groups, we are 100% driven by our base, short sighted instincts.

This is what makes it so damn difficult to get a reasonable reaction out of any particular govermental group, the group can't understand logic and plan accordingly.

There may be times or instances, such as WWII and the Manhattan project, when the group cedes limited control to a small efficient cadre to lead them from danger. But the group first needs to have a collective experience of danger.

Our groups have not yet been sufficiently traumatized to elicit this threat response. It is likely that, due to the time delay, the opportunity to act may ( have already?) pass before the effect is triggered.

If it is ever triggered I suspect you will see calls for mobilization to develop carbon capture or geoengineering projects on a WWII scale.

I hope this makes some sense to some here.
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Old 30-12-2013, 07:47   #178
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Re: Save the Planet!

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There may be times or instances, such as WWII and the Manhattan project, when the group cedes limited control to a small efficient cadre to lead them from danger. But the group first needs to have a collective experience of danger.
not to mention that ceding control to a small cadre, got them into the situation in the first place !!!!

nr would I argue that anything involving the military can be small or efficient.!!

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Old 30-12-2013, 07:53   #179
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Just a thought, not meant to leave anyone off the hook personally ......

There are some serious researchers who think we have NO free will. I won't try to explain, their research is interesting. Look it up.

Personally, I'm not convinced. I think that on an individual level we have SOME degree of free will. Not much, but some.

Now there are other researchers (E. O. Wilson) who think that we evolved in response to two forces; personal survival and group (tribe, herd, colony) survival. This is called "eusocial" where groups become highly organized and compete with other groups of the same species for survival, and evolution. He makes a good case.

Consider that humanity is a eusocial critter, our individual groups take on a personality and intelligence of their own.

...

I hope this makes some sense to some here.
Makes sense to me hpeer -- not sure if that's a good thing, but I appreciate what you're saying. It's along the same lines of some of my previous posts regarding humanity's evolutionary capacities. We are critters who have done amazing things, but we're still just animals with specific evolutionary adaptations. These adaptions give us advantages, and disadvantages. As we come to understand more about our species we are beginning to uncover these disadvantages.

Some of our disadvantages are coming to light when we try and deal with these non-distinct, distant issues like climate change. I would put the economic crisis that is gripping western countries is also in this category. As Doodles points out, it's easy to talk in generalities (as I do), but it's hard to come up with a workable alternative to the current form of capitalism that is destroying our societies. So too with climate change.
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Old 30-12-2013, 08:06   #180
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Re: Save the Planet!

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Consider that humanity is a eusocial critter, our individual groups take on a personality and intelligence of their own.

My idea is that while individuls have some free will, these larger groups we belong to have virtually NO free will. Statistically, acting in groups, we are 100% driven by our base, short sighted instincts.

This is what makes it so damn difficult to get a reasonable reaction out of any particular govermental group, the group can't understand logic and plan accordingly.

There may be times or instances, such as WWII and the Manhattan project, when the group cedes limited control to a small efficient cadre to lead them from danger. But the group first needs to have a collective experience of danger.

Our groups have not yet been sufficiently traumatized to elicit this threat response. It is likely that, due to the time delay, the opportunity to act may ( have already?) pass before the effect is triggered.

If it is ever triggered I suspect you will see calls for mobilization to develop carbon capture or geoengineering projects on a WWII scale.

I hope this makes some sense to some here.
It makes alot of sense.

Following your train, the question becomes - can we respond soon enough to oncoming problems before a crisis forces a response?

I don't buy into the thought that human behaviour in groups is pre-ordained somehow. If we can recognise something, we can change it. The number of people throwing up roadblocks to even thinking about the future (... history, blah blah blah. Al Gore BAAAD!) is a problem of conflicting interests to be addressed, not to be shrugged off as "that's what we do".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles
That all sounds very high and nobel but who or what is going to bring it about?
Step one is trying to cut through the BS that prevents us from making our best efforts to examine what's what. Hating on advocates like Gore, accusing the entire field of climate science of ulterior motives, blind (or calculated) faith in the invisible hand of the market, crusty beliefs in the inevitability of mankind's downfall...
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