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Old 14-03-2019, 08:05   #46
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

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....I have a C22 and love it, but it's just not designed for the open ocean. It's great for a lot of things, but not that - you only live once. Just my own 2 cents.
Actually, you live every day. You only DIE once.
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Old 14-03-2019, 09:25   #47
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

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Actually, you live every day. You only DIE once.
Divide it up how you like, it's still only one life. Be here now.
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Old 14-03-2019, 09:55   #48
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

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Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
Webb Chiles, the exception that proves the rule. If you've read his book you know you'd have to be crazy to do what he did and I think he might have been at the time.

I agree, the San Juan 24 is a lot more boat than the Catalina 22 but it's still not blue water capable as proved by the misadventures of Rimas Meleshyus.

His misadventures had little if anything to do with the boat.

I understand the desire to use the boat you have: but how much to get this boat in reasonable condition to be reasonable safe (though still less safe than a different boat?)
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Old 14-03-2019, 10:13   #49
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
in what way? Well, lets see...



SJ24;

LOA 24

LWL 19.5

SA to D 18.19

D:L 154

Disp 3200

Ballast 1200 fixed Pb

Rudder: Fixed spade inside WL



Cat 22

LOA 21.5

LWL 19.3

Sa to D 18.17

D:L 192

Ballast either 550 or 800 depending on source (mine was 550) swing Fe

Rudder transom hung, maybe kick up, prone to ventilation



So, I see more structural weight in the SJ, so not likely less strongly built. I see over twice the ballast, and fixed in place and lead. I see a more conservative D:L ratio. I see plenty of power to achieve hull speed, and I'm sure it will surf on waves. I do see what is an early IOR design, and they did sometimes have squirrely habits downwind. I know from long experience that when driven hard, Cat 22s will broach, mainly due to the rudder ventilating at big heel angles and big weather helm then too.



I don't have numbers, but I suspect a bit more freeboard in the SJ, and likely less volume in the cockpit due to the pinched stern. Further, again without numbers, I suspect that the rig in the SJ is a bit beefier, since they were expected to use kites when racing, and at least when I was racing my Cat 22 kites were not allowed in the one design rules... and I know from experience that the rig was fragile.



So, I stand by my previous opinion that the SJ 24 is a better sea boat than the Cat 22. I would not undertake an ocean passage in either one.



Jim


The ballast value you indicate for the SJ appears incorrect.

SailboatData.com lists
SJ24
Displacement 3200
Ballast: 1650
Beam: 8.0
Length: 24.0

SJ24 class rules indicate
Minimum stripped weight 3250 (pg12)
Ballast: 1640-1660 (pg13)
http://okcboatclub.com/files/phrf/class-rules/sj-24.pdf

So hull weight is 1600.

SBD.com again
Cat22
Displacement 2490
Ballast: 800
Beam: 7.7
Length: 21.5

Hull weight 1690

So the Cat22 has slightly more hull weight spread over a shorter, narrower hull that, as you indicate, also has a lower freeboard. The Cat 22 looks to have significantly more weight per area of hull.

The later model Cat22s had a lighter ballast weight (550).

My research indicates SJ mast section is the same or slightly bigger than the Cat mast but it is 20% taller. Not surprising since the SJ was intended as a serious racer and the Cat was intended as a family boat. Data on the mast section is hard to come by for the SJ. So I’m not so sure on this.
Coincidentally they are both about the same section as my Cal20.

Ventilation is a problem for any transom hung rudder, but that can be fixed with a fence. Short of building a new rudder there ain’t no fixing the one in the SJ.

What’s worse a smaller cockpit on a boat that lacks floatation in the ends or a larger cockpit on a boat with good flotation in the stern? I suspect that the SJ has a slight advantage here. A big scupper out the stern would solve the problem for both boats.

In the mid ‘80s a member of the sailing org I learned to sail at had an SJ-24. I sailed in it several times. In light air they were great. With big overlapping Genoas they started moving early and quickly reached hull speed. But with the pinched ends they really couldn’t surf consistently and when they did were very squirrelly.

With the big Genoas favored by IOR that means a lot of heads sail changes as wind strength changes. This can be somewhat overcome with a roller furler but reefing the main is a lot easier over time.

I would never go offshore in an SJ24 and would only do so on a Cat22 if it was fixed keel and had the rigging beefed up.
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Old 14-03-2019, 11:49   #50
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

check out the YouTube channel, "sailing tarka."
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Old 14-03-2019, 13:51   #51
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Yeah, I love Tarka.
But it’s not the boat the OP has, it’s a Albin Vega 27.
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Old 14-03-2019, 16:48   #52
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The ballast value you indicate for the SJ appears incorrect.

SailboatData.com lists
SJ24
Displacement 3200
Ballast: 1650
Beam: 8.0
Length: 24.0

SJ24 class rules indicate
Minimum stripped weight 3250 (pg12)
Ballast: 1640-1660 (pg13)
http://okcboatclub.com/files/phrf/class-rules/sj-24.pdf

So hull weight is 1600.

SBD.com again
Cat22
Displacement 2490
Ballast: 800
Beam: 7.7
Length: 21.5

Hull weight 1690

So the Cat22 has slightly more hull weight spread over a shorter, narrower hull that, as you indicate, also has a lower freeboard. The Cat 22 looks to have significantly more weight per area of hull.

The later model Cat22s had a lighter ballast weight (550).

My research indicates SJ mast section is the same or slightly bigger than the Cat mast but it is 20% taller. Not surprising since the SJ was intended as a serious racer and the Cat was intended as a family boat. Data on the mast section is hard to come by for the SJ. So I’m not so sure on this.
Coincidentally they are both about the same section as my Cal20.

Ventilation is a problem for any transom hung rudder, but that can be fixed with a fence. Short of building a new rudder there ain’t no fixing the one in the SJ.

What’s worse a smaller cockpit on a boat that lacks floatation in the ends or a larger cockpit on a boat with good flotation in the stern? I suspect that the SJ has a slight advantage here. A big scupper out the stern would solve the problem for both boats.

In the mid ‘80s a member of the sailing org I learned to sail at had an SJ-24. I sailed in it several times. In light air they were great. With big overlapping Genoas they started moving early and quickly reached hull speed. But with the pinched ends they really couldn’t surf consistently and when they did were very squirrelly.

With the big Genoas favored by IOR that means a lot of heads sail changes as wind strength changes. This can be somewhat overcome with a roller furler but reefing the main is a lot easier over time.

I would never go offshore in an SJ24 and would only do so on a Cat22 if it was fixed keel and had the rigging beefed up.
Yep, you are correct about the SJ24 ballast and I was wrong. Dunno how I came up with the number! But my Cat 22 was hull 61 out of over 15000 that were built... hardly a "later model" and it had the 550 lb swing keel. I don't know how they would have put 800 lbs into that keel shape without increasing the draft, and it surely was not legal in our old one design class rules... I kinda doubt the accuracy of that weight.

No data on the SJ mast, but I know from personal experience that the Cat 22 mast and rig are fragile, having lost two masts within the confines of SF Bay. Neither rig is adequate for offshore use IMO.

At any rate, I must defer to your actual sailing experience in the SJ24 and agree that it isn't a good choice for offshore usage. Rimas's experience shows, however, that even in the hands of an idiot it kept him alive (barely).

But I also believe that my own fairly extensive sailing of a swing keel Cat 22 shows that it too is a poor choice for offshore voyaging, and in my opinion, likely worse than the San Juan.

However, we do agree that neither one would suit either of us, and that our general advice is that the OP should reconsider his options.

Jim
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Old 16-03-2019, 13:14   #53
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

A C22 swing keel weighs 550 pounds. Not sure how they got to 800 lbs ballast.

We recently sailed our "new design" C22 from Marco Island FL to the Dry Tortugas and back, 130 miles each way. On the return leg we were close hauled in 19 knots and 5' seas most of the way. The autopilot wasn't up to the job, so we were hand steering. Impossible to sleep between shifts, the way the boat bounced around. The boat handled it just fine, under a double reef and a 75% jib, but the two of us would have been incapacitated with exhaustion after one more day of that.

I don't want to think about sailing her hard to windward in 50% bigger conditions (or MORE). I'm not sure if the boat would survive, but I'm quite certain I would not. Nobody cheerleads for the C22 more than I do, but this is madness.
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Old 18-03-2019, 07:05   #54
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Having also sailed my Catalina 22 on SF Bay as well as Florida Keys, I would just say that Jim has given you very good advice. I would add one thing: a lightweight boat has a tough time ocean sailing in any but the calmest seas. Crossing the Gulf Stream if conditions are anything but ideal will likely be unpleasant and long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
It has been many years since I owned, cruised and raced my Cat 22, mostly in the SF bay. That boat was hull # 61, purchased directly from Catalina in N Hollywood. Don't know the. age of yours, and some bits may well have been improved since that time.

But, even in that venue, I broke a lot of stuff on the boat. I've never sailed in the Caribe and thus don't understand the conditions, but in the SF Bay we regularly raced in 25-30 kts and the expected resultant chop with wave heights of ~ 5-6 feet. I had only one reef point in the main, and I had a small jib, roughly 60 sq ft IIRC that e used in winds > around 20. And we still broke stuff!

Several sets of ever beefier pintles and gudgeons.

A tiller.

A spreader, resulting in loss of mast.

Beefed up spreaders, resulting in breaking a spreader base casting and loss of another mast.

Mainsheet lower block disintegrated.

Seal on keel pivot pin failed and cause considerable leakage.

Stranded a cap shroud with no failure. Re rigged with next size up wire.

Electrical system was inadequately designed and installed, but I suspect that has been improved.

There were a number of other hardware failures but I don't remember well enough to specify. It was pretty apparent that we were operating the boat a bit outside of its comfort zone... but we were season champs twice and 10th in the nationals one year when it was sailed on the bay.

And remember that this was on a boat stripped down for racing. When you load her up with cruising gear, stresses build rapidly. I'm not saying that you should not go, but I am advising that you beef up nearly everything on board before venturing into open waters. I did go outside the gate into the ocean a few times, including a trip down to Monterrey, and that was kinda scary, even on a pretty benign day. On the other hand, we did the trip Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz island and back a few times in cruise mode... but those are pretty mild waters most of the time.

So, go if you must, but don't expect the boat to survive without a lot of help before departure, and a lot of care in selecting weather windows and at least a small dose of good luck.

I don't think I'd do it... but you didn't want to hear that!

Jim
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Old 18-03-2019, 07:06   #55
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Sell the Catalina. Rudder and keel would be my largest concern. Find an old Columbia 24 or the like. Fixed keel stronger rudder cheap to buy.

That said I remember a story many years ago about two retired firemen who sailed a mcgreggor 24 cutter with a swing keel from fla to the Caribbean and did ok. The article was in a sailing rag. They liked putting the boat up on the beach. Seem to recall they sailed without dink. The Catalina I would thing is a more sound boat. We all love the boats we have often overlooking the negatives. I would prefer a more stout boat. The old saying that there are two kinds of sailors. The ones that have run aground and those who will. I would thus want a stronger keel and rudder. Everything else. Autopilots, reef points, water, stores can be put together rather easily as needed. Lots of shallow water in the Bahamas. Sailed on a very nice island packet 38 with a centerboard. Draft board up only 4 feet. We ran aground! Lost centerboard. No structural damage. Did not know we lost the board until much later.

Good luck. Whatever you do if it is your dream just do it!!!
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Old 18-03-2019, 07:52   #56
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Have you ever sailed a swing keeled boat in 6 foot waves?
Think about that.
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Old 18-03-2019, 08:08   #57
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

PS
You're telling the Forum that you're going to do this trip in a Cat 22 in spite of any advice to the contrary (and it seems there are many such comments), and asking how you should prepare the boat. So....

Prefacing this statement with the caveat that you don't see a whole lot of lightweight little weekenders like the Cat 22 in the Caribbean, the water I've sailed in around Cuba and Great Inagua and the Exumas (the deeper passages for example), can easily cause a Cat 22 or similar boat to DISINTEGRATE.

Accordingly, have good rescue system. Be prepared with redundant equipment that will enable you to survive a disaster. Have a life raft that's probably going to be more costly than the mothership. Be ready to disembark with enough food and water to survive for days. Have your cellphone and VHF with you. Can you do the trip in that boat? Sure--everyone gets lucky. Expect the best, prepare for the worst, and pay very very close attention to the weather.

"If a man will pray, let him go to sea...."
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Old 18-03-2019, 09:11   #58
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

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Have you ever sailed a swing keeled boat in 6 foot waves?
Think about that.
I have, in 25MPH winds in the bay, so the wave period was very rough, C25.

I wouldn't say the swing keel was the major issue, but the shape of the boat was certainly.

Wasn't in any real danger, but:

1) these boats are flat on the bottom. You pound like crazy into the waves. Really bad. After 20 minutes you are absolutely DONE with that and you need to change your angle of attack.

2) If the wave period is rough you have almost zero helm at certain points of sail, with or without the motor.
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Old 18-03-2019, 10:52   #59
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

Nice to see you enjoying your C22 around the Keys. As a former owner of one, I can attest they are fun to sail in protected waters and have more storage space than many boats much larger. That being said, I found the boat was just not designed or built for the open ocean waters and quickly moved to a boat made for the type of cruising I wanted to do.

Besides what others have mentioned, especially standing rigging and chain plates, beefing up rudder, and strong auto pilot, added reef points, things to consider would be:

1. Your outboard - is a 5-6hp going to be strong enough to be able to move the boat in the Bahamas where wind can blow over 30kts for days? Going with a more powerful 9.9hp is really too heavy for the boat in anything but very flat seas. How do I know? I destroyed a like new 9.9hp when it got pooped in 2 - 4 ft seas.
2. You are going to need to get some serious ground tackle to keep the boat safely anchored in the constant wind conditions. How and where to store it on the C22 is challenging as it really has an anchor locker made for a picnic anchor.
3. Have you given any thought to what you would use for a dinghy and how you would store it during passages?
4. In just moderate conditions the C22 is a wet boat. Don't know what year yours is, but I would suggest making sure all hardware has been rebedded and your boat is totally leak free. Also, check cockpit scuppers. You might want to enlarge them.
5. Bring lots of spare parts, tools, and repair materials so that you can be as self sufficient as possible. It is very hard to get parts in the Bahamas and everything is very expensive.

Now I would add up all of the costs to try to make your trailer/ sailor boat as sea worthy as it can be and balance those with moving up to a boat designed to cruise. The Catalina 27 made the list in a book called 20 small boats that can take you any where and they can be had very inexpensively ( look for one with replaced chain plates ).

You might also get some really sound suggestions and information from the helpful folks at Catalina Direct or the FB page Catalina 22 owners.

Best of luck to you .
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Old 18-03-2019, 11:32   #60
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Re: Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

I just sailed a PY26 from the Hudson to west FLA, en rte (next fall) to Caribbean so, this interests me.
I've been studying an older book, “The Gentleman’s Guide to Passages South”
By Bruce Van Sant.
Note I don't have experience in these waters, but the book focuses on how to do your uphill trip, with the least fighting the weather, even using it to your advantage. which seems to be the above posters' main concerns.
Any of you older salts have an opinion on Mr. Van Sant's ideas?

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailin.../gentleman.htm
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