Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-06-2011, 14:56   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
Re: Curiouser and curiouser!

That's because the original design features a "retractable keel", which is a somewhat unique idea for a boat of this size. Wish I could find an original : )

If you have not yet done so, please see my reply to Zeehag above, which addresses this issue. In fact, the boat in question seems to have been some kind of modification, built in Japan (not the Netherlands), so yes, this is a curious situation.

Check the following, and let me know what you can find out - "The sloop was built in Osaka Japan by Chita in 1983. It has a 13.5' beam and 11'8" draft. The design #525". So far, I have come up with a blank on this, but, perhaps I did not search the right locale.

Maybe folks on the far east thread could help as well. Feel free to PM them if appropriate.

Regards,

G2L
__________________

__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 15:31   #17
Registered User
 
capnorv's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bainbridge Island Washington on the Salish Sea
Boat: Hardin 45 Voyager Alice B., Gig Harbor 10, Orca 7 1/2 sloop, 16' sea kayak
Posts: 364
Images: 1
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

If she's a true fiberglass vessel, she's fixable. If she's plywood or other wood inside, walk away. Resetting a keel is not the end of the world. Replacing keel bolts can also be done. I'd be more concerned about the anchoring restrictions caused by 12 feet of draft! If you like the boat, delve deeper. As a boat seller I'm always on the up with potential buyers. I guess that might have something to do with selling ours last month before I even got a for sale sign on her. If a seller isn't honest about something so obvious, what else is he hiding...just saying. Good luck
__________________

__________________
capnorv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 15:45   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
Typical Keel Length on a 44' fin keeled boat?

Thanks Cpn,

Well, he could be "hiding" his own ignorance - which potential buyers like me, though perhaps even more ignorant, just can't afford.

Appreciate your input. It seems like I need to ask the seller more questions, and, if he can't answer them, I need to hire somebody who can: that is, if it would be worth my trouble.

I hear what you are saying about the draft, and boy, even that did not seem exactly accurate to me. Do 44 foot, fin keeled glass boats typically draw 12'?

Last boat I sailed that big was a Morgan 41, and it has been a lot of years, so I don't remember the exact keel design. However, I also don't recall the draft being anything like 12 foot. Will double check the design sites on that and other boats in the 40-45 foot range.

Have asked the seller to reconfirm his figures, because I think he may not have got them right or simply posted a typo. What do you think?

Regards,

G2L
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:05   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,466
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

G'Day G2L,

I gather that you have not seen this boat in the flesh as yet. So, how do you know what the damaged area looks like in detail? And to me, concrete and steel look a LOT different, FWIW. Anyhow, from the photo, it does not appear to be an encapsulated keel, but probably either cast iron or lead. If encapsulated, there would not be a joint between the keel and the hull... rather it would be a continuous skin of glass. Finally, I am pretty sure that the draft is nowhere near 11+ feet. That extreme would be very unlikely with a keel design like that shown. It's hard to scale from the photo, but if I had to guess I'd say nearer to 7 feet.

Now as to the construction material. Van De Stadt often drew the plans to be built in a number of different media: steel, aluminium, or even cold molded or strip plank timber, the latter being glassed at least on the outside. The latter two are sometimes referred to as composite timber/glass construction. You should certainly find out exactly which this boat is made of before investing much time/effort.

More photos, showing more of the boat would be a help to us in answering your queries. I like many of VdS's designs, and it could be a really nice boat for you.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:05   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

If it's this one? 45ft Van de Stadt Racer/Cruiser Sailboat Then it only has an 8' draft.

But, I'd have to do my own survey before I could comment on the keel. I'd hire a surveyor that knows that type of build above relying on internet sailors.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:05   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
Draft on 41 Foot Morgan = six feet

Just checked,

A 41 foot Morgan Out Islander draws 6 foot although one shown for sale in Grenada on Sailboatlistings.com shows "a beam of 138', a length of 413' and a draft of 43' ".

So, I guess, as one threadmate put it, there are more than a few "curious" modifications out there : )

Thanks for your comments, which, thankfully, make a lot more sense than some found on some other, vaguely related threads.

Regards,

G2L
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:07   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

Good point - Eight foot seems high, but reasonable. You probably understand more about the boat than either I or the owner - see my comment below.

G2L
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:16   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
On VdS designs + 41-46' Morgans with 138' beams & 6" drafts

Yes, as noted further up the thread, I have not seen the boat yet in person.

I appreciate your input and advice, which definitely seem sound. I think we might be dealing with a "wood core" boat as noted above and shown in the various possible plans that VdS offers for the design which most closely matches that which I could find on the current VdS site. If you have not yet read the entire thread, and if interested, see some of my responses above for more.

And, oh, by the way, in addition to the Morgan noted above with the 138' beam, on the same site, there is a Morgan 461 listed with only a 6" draft. Geeze, I wish I would have found this before considering the VdS : )

Lastl, not sure we can dismiss concrete (wish we could) according to some of my more private sources.

Thanks again,

G2L
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:33   #24
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,571
Images: 14
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

I don't think the keel was damaged in the water. If the fuzzy white line around the top of the keel is marine oganisms growing on the slot between the steel/lead keel and the GRP hull, then I would also expect the same thing to happen on any damaged area of the keel. Especially if the boat has been left in the water for more than a month.

Looks like some strike marks around the lower keel area as well. Since I can't see rust here, it could be lead, which is a filler and paint repair job.

The damage could have been caused during lifting or an accident in the boat yard during storage. Been any big storms in the area?

You will want a good surveyor to assist you making a decision, but on a 25 year old boat, yes it is going to carry a few scars.

Pete
__________________
Moody 31 - April Lass
Pete7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:41   #25
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Not Curiouser and curiouser...

Plan 525 is listed on the Van de Stadt list of designs as the Yashima 45. This looks to be a lot closer to the boat that you are looking at.

It is very likely that Van de Stadt has further information on the design and manufacture. Why not email them with your queries?

As to the keel, my guess is that what you are looking at is a casting defect. If you were to show the photo to a founder experienced in pouring lead keels they may be able to cast some light on the matter.

If you do decide to proceed further then finding an a surveyor with experience in lead keels and fibreglass boats could be wise.
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 16:47   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 109
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

Hire a good surveyor. Internet advise is worth exactly what you pay for it (mine included except for the previous sentence)!
__________________
sailronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 17:28   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
On Lead v. Steel, Impacts in and out of Water - The Verdict?

Pete7,

Thanks for your note, and sorry for the constant editing. Just trying to make myself clear to folks who would know a lot more than I.

On the steel v. lead thing - thanks - that makes sense. So, it is most likely not steel, and maybe we can assume that it is lead vs. concrete.

And, it may be possible that the photo was taken after marine life was scraped off the bottom scratches, before the repair crew got to cleaning the area between the hull and top of the keel.

However, that would still infer some kind of impact (with the boat sitting in the water for a good time afterwards) which may have caused the hull/keel joint to get as infiltrated by marine organisms as it did. The paint on the entire rest of the keel is relatively undisturbed, so that is odd - no?

Furthermore, as one member noted above, if the hull is pure glass, the very heavy keel would be fastened to reinforced fibreglass. However, not knowing much about sailboat design, even this seems a bit unlikely. Wouldn't there be some sort of steel ballast in the hull. Of course, it could be surrounded by glass, but it seems like we might need something at least as sturdy to hold the keel in place. Please clarify this issue if you can.

Even with some sort of steel reinforcement of the hull, such designs are not made to withstand significant impacts to the keel, so, to my way of thinking, a keel that is loose enough to create a crack infested by marine life, might cause significant damage to the hull itself.

If something like the above happened in a glass boat with a wood infrastructure, a possible compromise of the hull and the resultant flooding (even if miniscule) would seem to be magnified by potential rot of the boat's essential structure.

At this point, it seems that we may have is a rather loosely affixed keel of an unknown material (lead or concrete seem the most likely candidates at this point). Also, we really don't know if there is some wood or steel structure under the glass that is essentially responsible for holding the keel in place.

In either case, seems to me that a good jolt against the keel, which seems evident from at least the bottom scratches, could have caused significant damage to the boat (which is now drydocked awaiting presumably minor repairs).

I have already asked a number of additional questions to the owner, and no doubt will pose more in the future.

In the meanwhile, any additional input on this thread would be greatly appreciated and seriously considered.

Best regards to all,

G2L
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 17:37   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 844
Images: 1
On the "535" Van de Stadt Design ...

... Makes a lot of sense. Will "follow the lead" as they say on TV : )

Thanks sincerely for your help, and for your past comments on various threads.

Best regards,

G2l
__________________
Gone2long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 18:09   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,971
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

While this will take some investigation, I wouldn't put keel problems it at the top of your list of worries.

I once had a lead keel that had a 2'x1' fiberglass/putty area in the upper trailing edge. It had no structural role. The cast lead looked like a slanting letter "L". This makes sense. The designer wants to get the lead's weight as low as possible. He also wants the forward "thick" part of the keel chord to be metal to get the widest possible attachment to the hull to resist lateral bending force. Finally, the trailing edge is thin so hard to cast in metal.

When you visit the boat, take along a small hammer and tap around. I expect you'll find the lead is not the whole keel area and that the damage is in a mostly cosmetic piece of fiberglass.

Red flags to me would be:

An encapsulated fiberglass keel where there's sign water got inside. While this can be dried out, you really need to then know everything about what's inside.

Any sign of cracking inside the hull in the sump that might indicate fatigue or inadequate laminate thickness in the keel stub where the keel is bolted (not likely in this boat brand).

Anything that might suggest broken or corroded keel bolts (this would be a keel joint that is wider at one end than the other). Keel bolts can be fixed but it can be an expensive job.

Obviously, your surveyor will check all this if you get that far in the purchase. I'd be much more worried about finding out exactly what parts of the hull and deck are cored. What the core material is. And how well the core has been checked for water intrusion.

Carl
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 18:32   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,466
Re: Keel Disaster - The Verdict?

G2L,

Well, I really think that your worries about a concrete keel are way off. In this shape of keel it just isn't likely to happen. Not steel either. Possibly cast iron, but in a design this racy it is almost certainly lead. And how do you know that the crack between keel and hull is "infested" with marine growth? It is a common practice to use some sort of elastomeric sealant in this area. The sealant is then painted with antifouling, along with the rest of the bottom. But, the paint doesn't adhere well to the sealant, so off it goes, and on come the barnies... on the sealant, not in the hull somewhere. A closer look will tell!

And, please try to understand that a cold-molded or strip planked and glassed hull doesn't have a "wood core". The hull is a very strong structure of timber, well soaked in epoxy and then glassed, sometimes on the outside only, but often on both sides. This is a superior means of building a one-off boat And this boat, while from a stock design, has been built as a one-off in all likelihood. It is awfully expensive to build a plug and a mold for a one off, so conventional fibreglass construction is doubtful (even though the brokerage site says "fibreglass"). Another possibility is "C-Flex" fibreglass which uses fibreglass rods in much the same way as strip planking uses narrow strakes of timber.

Until you or your trusted agent has a good look at the boat out of the water, it will remain speculative, but my initial guess is that the keel root issue is as I mentioned above, and the circular defect in the trailing edge is a place where the antifouling failed (for whatever reason) and a load of barnies grew. When hauled out, the yard crew did a superficial job of scraping the barnies off, leaving their calcereous "footprints" behind.

Anyhow, good luck with your investigation, and let us know what appears on inspection.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aluminum Keel-Stepped Mast to Iron Keel - Grounded ? endoftheroad Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 30-09-2010 15:47
What's the Verdict on Titanium Shackles and Swivels ? TrevC Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 10 13-04-2010 21:43
Dinius Verdict in . . . zeehag Cruising News & Events 10 30-08-2009 22:00
Orana 44-Final verdict yeloya Fountaine Pajot 15 16-12-2008 05:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.