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Old 16-12-2014, 09:53   #106
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I don't recall claiming to be "an expert on the subject". It seems you're the one energetically trying to establish that.

That said, I've sailed for a few years now, including off-shore races and deliveries, and on many different kinds of boats, heavy and light, with varying freeboard. I've owned and sailed a Hunter 40 for over a year now and I like it very much. I bought it, on purpose even, after the above experiences and a lot of research. That may or may not make me an "expert", but it certainly gives me an opinion - just like you.

More importantly, I see reports from all kinds of sailors who are sailing Hunters all over the world - and the majority of them seem to be enjoying their Hunters (or Beneteaus, etc.) very much. I've only run across a few people that seem to dislike them very much. So I'm always interested in those opinions - like I am yours.

In evaluating your opinion above, I'm starting to wonder if your anchoring decisions and techniques might be the root of yours and your friend's problems - instead of the boat. See, if you really are experiencing "cushions and all kinds of stuff being flung from one side of the boat to the other" while at anchor, this means you are rolling ~80+ degrees side-to-side

Now, I've never heard of anyone...ever....having that problem unless they've anchored in a surf zone. And if they've done so - the amount of freeboard doesn't matter at all. And, as you report, I would certainly expect the boat to be "banging and popping" as well. That's a lot of stress.

So - in this case, we're back to the problem being more on the sailor and technique than the boat. The boat had nothing to do with the sailor choosing the surf zone to anchor in. See what I mean?

I will say, though, that I'm truly impressed that your Oyster can handle sitting in such a violent anchorage without rolling. That's awesome. I honestly didn't know Oysters (or any boat really) could do that. And I now completely understand why you bought it. It was definitely the right decision for how you use your boat.ii

For me, I'll stick with my Hunter. I plan to sail it around the ocean and stuff and have absolutely NO plans to anchor in a surf zone - so I think it'll do just fine for my intended use.

Finally, I totally agree with you on the catamaran. That will likely be my next boat as well.

PS - You might ask MarkJ for some tips on anchoring/mooring. He rode out a hurricane in his Beneteau while on a mooring. And he didn't mention "cushions and all kinds of stuff being flung from one side of the boat to the other". So he seems to be doing it right.
I believe this is exactly why Kenomac cited your lack of experience & expertise when it comes to the OP's question about an extended voyage that entails lengthy periods of time living aboard, and often at less than desirable anchorages. Kenomac has apparently experienced both, and on both a Hunter and an Oyster.

Just like your inexperience prevented you from recognizing pics of simple prep work for a bottom job on a different thread, your lack of experience living aboard while doing extended passages makes it obvious you have no idea what you're talking about in this area as well. Otherwise you would know that anchoring in a wind that opposes a swell is an inevitable fact of life for what the OP has in mind, that it doesn't involve anchoring "in the surf," and that nowhere near 80 degs. of roll is required to get cushions flying or to make it uncomfortable. Kenomac specifically distinguished his own anchoring experience and that of a fellow Hunter owner with more comfortable boats like catamarans, heavier displacement boats like his own Oyster, "AND the lower freeboard wider Beneteau type designs." So I'm not sure why you are suggesting asking MarkJ about what his Beneteau is like at anchor when Kenomac has explicitly confined his remarks to the Hunter the OP was inquiring about.

Making note of other Hunter owners who are happy with their boats and others who have gone long-distances is helpful. But distorting the comments of others who have a more negative opinion only blows your credibility and reveals your refusal to get beyond your own obvious bias. Wouldn't it be wiser to learn from others about the strengths & weaknesses of your own boat so you could better prepare?
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Old 16-12-2014, 09:58   #107
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
If anyone is listening, I'm with Keno on this one. And not because of quality (although that is an issue) it's the boat shape on the bottom.
No, not the shape of the hull, they are not that different. More to do with length, overall beam and displacement.



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Old 16-12-2014, 10:11   #108
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

You dont need a surf to roll 80 degress, i can point you few places with calm waters where you can roll 80 degress or more at anchor.
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Old 16-12-2014, 10:13   #109
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
. . . Otherwise you would know that anchoring in a wind that opposes a swell is an inevitable fact of life for what the OP has in mind, that it doesn't involve anchoring "in the surf," and that nowhere near 80 degs. of roll is required to get cushions flying or to make it uncomfortable. Kenomac specifically distinguished his own anchoring experience and that of a fellow Hunter owner with more comfortable boats like catamarans, heavier displacement boats like his own Oyster, "AND the lower freeboard wider Beneteau type designs." So I'm not sure why you are suggesting asking MarkJ about what his Beneteau is like at anchor when Kenomac has explicitly confined his remarks to the Hunter the OP was inquiring about.
For whatever it's worth, my boat is also uncomfortably rolly in some anchorages, much more so than my previous crappy long keel boat.

My theory is that a relatively high aspect fin keel offers less hydrodynamic resistance to rolling than a longer keel. And that low D/L ratio also makes it worse (my boat, despite being built like a tank, is ultra light displacement for her size).

I have spent a fair amount of time sailing Oysters, but never been at anchor on one. If they are less rolly than my boat -- and based on Ken's comments, it sounds like they are -- then I would guess that the much greater D/L would be the reason.

For those of us who suffer from rolling at anchor, a flopper stopper is the answer. I'm going to be building one this winter. I probably wouldn't choose a boat based on this.
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Old 16-12-2014, 10:42   #110
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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For whatever it's worth, my boat is also uncomfortably rolly in some anchorages, much more so than my previous crappy long keel boat.

My theory is that a relatively high aspect fin keel offers less hydrodynamic resistance to rolling than a longer keel. And that low D/L ratio also makes it worse (my boat, despite being built like a tank, is ultra light displacement for her size).

I have spent a fair amount of time sailing Oysters, but never been at anchor on one. If they are less rolly than my boat -- and based on Ken's comments, it sounds like they are -- then I would guess that the much greater D/L would be the reason.

For those of us who suffer from rolling at anchor, a flopper stopper is the answer. I'm going to be building one this winter. I probably wouldn't choose a boat based on this.
Yes, I agree on that one. The keel area and beam are roll dampers. The bigger displacement does not diminish roll but makes it slower and more comfortable.

Bilge keels can also contribute to damp roll.
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Old 16-12-2014, 11:11   #111
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

We own a H356 and use it as a coastal cruiser.

A question on displacement, the H356 has a displacent of about 14000 lbs, ballast about 5000 lbs, draft is about 5 ft, the lead keel has a small bulb on it.

Comparing this to a boat like an 350 Island Packet, at 16000 lbs displacement, and 7500 lbs of ballast, and a draft of just over 4 ft. The IP has a heavier engine, mast etc.

I know the IP is much stronger and much better built boat than the Hunter. We looked at several IP 35 and 350s as well as others before buying our H356. So I researched them well and talked to many IP owners.

I do see comments about Hunter being light displacement and they are compared to some boats, but I have never seen anyone say an IP was light displacement. In fact I've heard IPs referred to as heavy displacement boats often by the owners who like to call them island piglets.

Is there some rule of thumb or ratio of length to displacement to specify what is light or medium or heavy displacement ? Is the amount of ballast and how it is distributed a consideration ?

Bob
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Old 16-12-2014, 11:35   #112
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Then I would assume you would hold the same opinion of Island Packets and modern Oysters, Hylas, Passports, etc.? They are all now beamy, flat bottom boats.
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I don't know Smitty. I have sailed IP's through severe weather. They just don't behave like you say.
I'm a simple man.
If it behaves in big waves and winds I like it.
If it doesn't I don't
Can I sleep on her in peace?
Bendys, most Catalinas and Hunters haven't been able to pass the test so far...
But that doesn't mean they couldn't- I just haven't sailed on one that could.
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Old 16-12-2014, 12:09   #113
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH260 View Post
We own a H356 and use it as a coastal cruiser.

A question on displacement, the H356 has a displacent of about 14000 lbs, ballast about 5000 lbs, draft is about 5 ft, the lead keel has a small bulb on it.

Comparing this to a boat like an 350 Island Packet, at 16000 lbs displacement, and 7500 lbs of ballast, and a draft of just over 4 ft. The IP has a heavier engine, mast etc.

I know the IP is much stronger and much better built boat than the Hunter. We looked at several IP 35 and 350s as well as others before buying our H356. So I researched them well and talked to many IP owners.

I do see comments about Hunter being light displacement and they are compared to some boats, but I have never seen anyone say an IP was light displacement. In fact I've heard IPs referred to as heavy displacement boats often by the owners who like to call them island piglets.

Is there some rule of thumb or ratio of length to displacement to specify what is light or medium or heavy displacement ? Is the amount of ballast and how it is distributed a consideration ?

Bob
Yes there are several calculators but the values don't make sense anymore. Through the years the sailing-boats become better and lighter and a main market cruising boat, even an Oyster will be considered a cruiser racer by those old calculators. What is considered light, medium weight or heavy many times only makes sense when refereed to a given epoch.

But yes the Hunters were all light cruisers, not very different from all the other main market mass production cruisers and regarding those, that are the vast majority they are not light, but average.

The IP, contrary to Hunters did not have modified their basic design on the last 35 years so they are comparatively more heavy now. They were once medium weight boats, now they are heavy boats, compared with boats that target the same market, like Halberg Rassy, Najad or XC yachts, that are middle weight boats by today's standards.

But preferring to sail on a light or even very light cruisers or in a medium or heavy cruiser has nothing to do with the boat quality. There are light cruisers very well built, as well or better than the IP. It has to do more with personal tastes and it has to do with a choice of compromises one chose to take. IP can be for most more comfortable than a lighter boat of the same size but they are all much slower and that has also to do with comfort. There is a IP 38 doing the ARC, it is by far the last boat and while an HR 40 arrived already at 4 days and a Delphia 33 at about 2 days, they have yet to sail for more 2 or 3 days. After so many days at sea I believe they are not very comfortable and would preferred to have arrived already.
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Old 16-12-2014, 12:11   #114
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Making note of other Hunter owners who are happy with their boats and others who have gone long-distances is helpful.
Yeah. That's why I highlighted those people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
But distorting the comments of others who have a more negative opinion only blows your credibility and reveals your refusal to get beyond your own obvious bias.
That might be true. But it depends on what I'm "distorting". For example, how many times have you heard of people complaining that "cushions and all kinds of stuff being flung from one side of the boat to the other"- while at anchor - or this doozy "How is the damn thing falling apart while at anchor "dependent on the sailor?" Honestly. That's not distortion? That's not bias?

Remember, credibility isn't dependent on a boat's brand, value, or size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Wouldn't it be wiser to learn from others about the strengths & weaknesses of your own boat so you could better prepare?
Absolutely. That's exactly what I'm doing. Some are good teachers. Others...not so much.

Look, I get that you might not like me very much, and that's okay, but you're really letting your emotions cloud the obvious here.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:04   #115
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I don't know Smitty. I have sailed IP's through severe weather. They just don't behave like you say.
I'm a simple man.
If it behaves in big waves and winds I like it.
If it doesn't I don't
Can I sleep on her in peace?
Bendys, most Catalinas and Hunters haven't been able to pass the test so far...
But that doesn't mean they couldn't- I just haven't sailed on one that could.
Yet you sail one of the boats that doesn't perform well in big waves due to its marketing driven design flaw. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In case you are unsure of what I am speaking, from the keyboard of Bob Perry:

Quote:
Then why did I make the Valiant 40 a double ender? Marketing! It was just assumed that offshore cruising boats had to be double enders and rather than buck that trend I decided to go with it and at the same time add my own twist to the shape to try and improve the performance of the double ender....

I remember sitting at dinner one night with the Lafitte group who built the Lafitte 44. At the other end of the dining table I could hear a discussion going on about the benefits of the canoe stern. I thought to myself, What BS. If any boat is going to spend its life moving forward the best way to end the boat is with a transom. The bow and the stern do very different jobs. The stern should not look like the bow. I dont think there really is a cogent argument for why double enders are the best sea boats. But if you insist on sailing around in reverse I think a double ender makes the most sense.
Not trying to be insulting but I do get aggravated when statements about design are driven by opinion rather than an understanding of boat design.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:38   #116
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH260 View Post
We own a H356 and use it as a coastal cruiser.

A question on displacement, the H356 has a displacent of about 14000 lbs, ballast about 5000 lbs, draft is about 5 ft, the lead keel has a small bulb on it.

Comparing this to a boat like an 350 Island Packet, at 16000 lbs displacement, and 7500 lbs of ballast, and a draft of just over 4 ft. The IP has a heavier engine, mast etc.

I know the IP is much stronger and much better built boat than the Hunter. We looked at several IP 35 and 350s as well as others before buying our H356. So I researched them well and talked to many IP owners.

I do see comments about Hunter being light displacement and they are compared to some boats, but I have never seen anyone say an IP was light displacement. In fact I've heard IPs referred to as heavy displacement boats often by the owners who like to call them island piglets.

Is there some rule of thumb or ratio of length to displacement to specify what is light or medium or heavy displacement ? Is the amount of ballast and how it is distributed a consideration ?

Bob

BOAT TYPE D/L RATIO

Light racing multihull 40-50

Ultra light ocean racer 60-100

Very light ocean racer 100-150

Light cruiser/racer 150-200

Light cruising auxiliary 200-250

Average cruising auxiliary 250-300

Heavy cruising auxiliary 300-350

Very heavy cruising auxiliary 350-400

From this excellent resource: Ted Brewer Yacht Design

To calculate D/L ratio you can use this formula: displacement in tons (of 2240 lbs) divided by .01 LWL cubed, or, Dt/(.01 LWL)3

from the same resource, or this calculator: D / L Ratio

Average boats have become lighter over the years since Brewer wrote these scales, for different reasons. For one thing, fiberglass construction is better understood now and can be engineered to be "strong enough" without a massive solid layup.

Also, lighter is cheaper, so it's part of value engineering. Some light boats are light very much at the expense of strength, but not everyone really needs boats to be as strong as the strongest ones are.

Lighter is faster. The Island Piglet 35 has a LWL of only 30 feet, so its D/L is about 290. By modern standards, that's a heavyweight. The Hunter 356 is 217 -- I have never sailed or even seen one, but I will bet dollars to donuts that it will sail rings around the IP 35.

My previous boat's D/L was about 300. My present boat is 188. The difference in sailing dynamics is incredible, not all down to D/L (15' of extra waterline length doesn't hurt ), but D/L plays a big role.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:42   #117
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Yet you sail one of the boats that doesn't perform well in big waves due to its marketing driven design flaw. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In case you are unsure of what I am speaking, from the keyboard of Bob Perry:



Not trying to be insulting but I do get aggravated when statements about design are driven by opinion rather than an understanding of boat design.
You missed the next sentence in that article:
But I still like double enders. Im working on a new 62 double ender right now.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:59   #118
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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You missed the next sentence in that article:
But I still like double enders. Im working on a new 62 double ender right now.
Didn't miss it at all. That statement has to do with aesthetics not performance. This is a performance based discussion. If newt said he like his Vailant 40 based on looks there is no further discussino needed. But he made his statement based on performance.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:20   #119
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post



From this excellent resource: Ted Brewer Yacht Design

To calculate D/L ratio you can use this formula: displacement in tons (of 2240 lbs) divided by .01 LWL cubed, or, Dt/(.01 LWL)3

from the same resource, or this calculator: D / L Ratio

Average boats have become lighter over the years since Brewer wrote these scales, for different reasons. For one thing, fiberglass construction is better understood now and can be engineered to be "strong enough" without a massive solid layup.
I feel the real reason D/Ls have gotten lower is because modern boats carry their length further aft now. So a 42' boat of days gone and a 42' boat of today with the same displacement have a D/L a lot different because the modern boat has a longer waterline (another reason life on a modern boat isn't at 30 degrees heel).
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:29   #120
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

Since I am the tempest in this teapot I will respond. Smitty didn't insult me at all. I still love Beth for the way she handles swells and confused seas up here in the PNW. Her bottom is different that current thinking. No problem, I never have sailed with the crowd. I have tried many to be sure, but I always come back to her.
As for Bob- I have heard many things attributed to him. I like him as a person. But I don't take everything he says as gospel.
Don't knock a boat until you have sailed her. Its a philosophy I have tried to live to, and has kept me from criticizing people or boats I know nothing about.
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