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Old 16-12-2014, 19:47   #136
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
But for the coastal sailor who always can choose a weather window (95% of boat owners), your right, 'good enough' works just fine. But let's not pretend it is better, just that it is 'good enough'. And for most, there is nothing wrong with that. Just recognize it for what it is, don't make it something it is not.
I think this gets to the heart of the matter. There is nothing to argue about here. There are very few boats made which are not strong enough for almost anything you might want to do with them, so why not choose something less expensive and lighter? Some people are willing to either put up with more weight, or pay more, for something which is stronger. Maybe they intend to venture to more boisterous latitudes, or maybe they just want a stronger boat, just in case. All of these choices are perfectly valid, and only you can decide.
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:38   #137
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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I think this gets to the heart of the matter. There is nothing to argue about here. There are very few boats made which are not strong enough for almost anything you might want to do with them, so why not choose something less expensive and lighter? Some people are willing to either put up with more weight, or pay more, for something which is stronger. Maybe they intend to venture to more boisterous latitudes, or maybe they just want a stronger boat, just in case. All of these choices are perfectly valid, and only you can decide.
Weight is never good on a sailboat. You seem to associate heavier with stronger and that is not always the case: The heavier one can be just an older non optimized design regarding efforts with a low draft and an older keel needing a lot more ballast for the same effect.

The lighter boat can be built with new techniques that save weight and give a stronger boat, like vacuum infusion, epoxy resins and a cored hull. Sure, a really light boat (lighter than the mass production ones) and strong has to be more expensive but also a modern middle weight boat has to be more expensive. Heavier boats need not only more material as they need stronger masts and bigger sails to go with the extra displacement. All that is expensive.

For me the best option in what regards price performance and strength comes from some boat builders with a reasonable production that can offer you all that I mentioned by a reasonable price, just a bit above what you would pay for a mass production boat.
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:41   #138
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Who is this "BWC"? I'm not sure that it is healthy or correct to divide people up into camps.

Does anyone argue that a boat needs to be merely heavy? I don't recall hearing such an argument.
BWC= Blue Water Crowd. And don't worry, that "camp" has been around for a very long time. I certainly didn't create it. They are those who relegate "production boats" to coastal sailing only because they are "too lightly and/or cheaply built" to be suited for "real" off-shore use.

Your statement here nails it:

Quote:
There are very few boats made which are not strong enough for almost anything you might want to do with them, so why not choose something less expensive and lighter?
Exactly right. But I guarantee you'll get some blow-back from the BWC for that sentiment at some point.
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:46   #139
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Weight is never good on a sailboat. You seem to associate heavier with stronger and that is not always the case: The heavier one can be just an older non optimized design regarding efforts with a low draft and an older keel needing a lot more ballast for the same effect.

The lighter boat can be built with new techniques that save weight and give a stronger boat, like vacuum infusion, epoxy resins and a cored hull. Sure, a really light boat (lighter than the mass production ones) and strong has to be more expensive but also a modern middle weight boat has to be more expensive. Heavier boats need not only more material as they need stronger masts and bigger sails to go with the extra displacement. All that is expensive.

For me the best option in what regards price performance and strength comes from some boat builders with a reasonable production that can offer you all that I mentioned by a reasonable price, just a bit above what you would pay for a mass production boat.
I never said that weight must be associated with strength -- where did you get that?

Here like everywhere else, a sailboat can be strong, light, or cheap -- pick any two.

If you want it to be strong and light, then just like for anything else, you will need to pay more.

If you want it to be strong and cheap -- then you will need to be willing for it to be heavy.

Or you can have cheap and light.

It's a classical engineering tradeoff.
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:48   #140
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
BWC= Blue Water Crowd. And don't worry, that "camp" has been around for a very long time. I certainly didn't create it. They are those who relegate "production boats" to coastal sailing only because they are "too lightly and/or cheaply built" to be suited for "real" off-shore use.

Your statement here nails it:



Exactly right. But I guarantee you'll get some blow-back from the BWC for that sentiment at some point.
Is this "BWC" a straw man? Did anyone say you can't sail a production boat except near the coast? I haven't read any comment from anyone to that effect.

It would be obviously false, but I doubt that anyone says that.
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Old 16-12-2014, 21:02   #141
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Did anyone say you can't sail a production boat except near the coast?

It would be obviously false, but I doubt that anyone says that.
Heh-heh. Okay.
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Old 16-12-2014, 21:17   #142
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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...
If you want it to be strong and cheap -- then you will need to be willing for it to be heavy.
..
Yes I agree, but heavier is more expensive too. An Island Packet 37 costs the same as a Jeanneau 50DS.
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Old 16-12-2014, 21:39   #143
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Yes I agree, but heavier is more expensive too. An Island Packet 37 costs the same as a Jeanneau 50DS.
Maybe you need to consider if the DS is cheap for the size?
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Old 16-12-2014, 22:48   #144
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Yes I agree, but heavier is more expensive too. An Island Packet 37 costs the same as a Jeanneau 50DS.
Yes, it's possible to have heavy, strong, and expensive, as that case shows. In my opinion it's a poor tradeoff. With apologies to Island Piglet fans.

If I were limited to that kind of budget, and I had to choose between those two boats, I would take the Jennie in a heartbeat.
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Old 16-12-2014, 22:49   #145
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Maybe you need to consider if the DS is cheap for the size?
You say that like it's a bad thing?

Value for money is definitely a good thing.
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Old 16-12-2014, 23:00   #146
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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In evaluating your opinion above, I'm starting to wonder if your anchoring decisions and techniques might be the root of yours and your friend's problems - instead of the boat. See, if you really are experiencing "cushions and all kinds of stuff being flung from one side of the boat to the other" while at anchor, this means you are rolling ~80+ degrees side-to-side

Now, I've never heard of anyone...ever....having that problem unless they've anchored in a surf zone. And if they've done so - the amount of freeboard doesn't matter at all. And, as you report, I would certainly expect the boat to be "banging and popping" as well. That's a lot of stress.

So - in this case, we're back to the problem being more on the sailor and technique than the boat. The boat had nothing to do with the sailor choosing the surf zone to anchor in. See what I mean?.
Honestly, how do you come up with this stuff (crap)?

I guess we can add: Never having anchored in a wind opposing swell situation to the long list of things that you haven't done.

Example: You're anchored in a secure anchorage, then the wind shifts 90 degrees or dies completely.... your boat is now facing parallel to the 1 meter swell. In the Hunter 450, everything including the people end up being launched across the boat due to the high freeboard, shallow draft keel. Everyone in the anchorage is rolling, some more than others. You don't need to be in a surf to experience this, it happens to everyone eventually and can happen anytime the wind dies but the swell continues.

Seriously.... Have you spent any time at anchor??
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Old 17-12-2014, 02:56   #147
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

My boat (40 foot Sun Fast) is called a performance cruiser and its D/T ration confirms that.

I sailed on bigger boats 50+ footers and will happily admit they are not as lively as mine.

OTOH - I've never experienced my boat with truly uncomfortable motion and we've been out in 40+ knots both close-hauled and running DDW and every aspect in between.

Here in the Baltic, the wave period is short and the waves steep (imagine 3 meter chop), so if the boat were going to be uncomfortable, I guess we would have seen it by now.


I'm with Dockhead. Virtually all these production boats will cross oceans without putting the crew at risk. Some boats, depending on size and build, will get there faster and some will be more comfortable than others.

The real questions are: how much money do you have to spend? how much room (boat size) do you desire?

The rest of this discussion is futile. I noted a lot of pages back that if any of the production were true "death traps" or had recurring problems with their keels/rudders/rigging or other really essential equipment, then the insurance companies would either refuse to insure them or charge a much higher premium.

No one has come forward and said they have to pay a higher premium or have been refused insurance just because their boat is a Hunter (or Bavaria , or , or , or pick your name).

I've also never heard of an insurance company giving a discount because the boat is an Oyster/Najad/IP/Moody (or you name it)

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Old 17-12-2014, 05:03   #148
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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My boat (40 foot Sun Fast) is called a performance cruiser and its D/T ration confirms that.
....
OTOH - I've never experienced my boat with truly uncomfortable motion and we've been out in 40+ knots both close-hauled ...Here in the Baltic, the wave period is short and the waves steep (imagine 3 meter chop), so if the boat were going to be uncomfortable, I guess we would have seen it by now.
.
Close hauled on 40ft winds on 3m short steep waves and without an uncomfortable motion? I would say that would give a very uncomfortable motion in any 40ft boat but i guess that what we call uncomfortable varies. My wife would say that is uncomfortable going upwind with that kind of waves with anything more than 15k.
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Old 17-12-2014, 10:36   #149
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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You say that like it's a bad thing?

Value for money is definitely a good thing.
If you look at size and interior volumen sure its a good thing, whats the fair Price for a really good 50 footer in the market, light, strong and expensive?
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Old 17-12-2014, 11:33   #150
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Re: Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

Example: You're anchored in a secure anchorage, then the wind shifts 90 degrees or dies completely.... your boat is now facing parallel to the 1 meter swell. In the Hunter 450, everything including the people end up being launched across the boat due to the high freeboard, shallow draft keel. Everyone in the anchorage is rolling, some more than others. You don't need to be in a surf to experience this, it happens to everyone eventually and can happen anytime the wind dies but the swell continues.
Plenty of 'rolly' anchorages in the Bahamas, due to surge through inlets. We've spent some very uncomfortable nights anchored in the Exumas, and Berry's, but had little choice due to conditions outside the anchorage. If you see 'surge' shown on the explorer charts, avoid that anchorage if possible.

Still....never had cushions or people flying around in my Hunter cabin though. I'm pretty sure all of our anchored neighbors were just as uncomfortable as we were, what ever kind of boat they were on. Except those on catamarans...

And BTW, not many Texas sailors deal with anchorages like this, no matter how much they anchor out. Our tides generally run 2-3 feet, and there are few anchorages close to inlets.

Carry on. But where did the OP disappear to? I guess he just pulled the pin, threw this thread out there, and hid behind a rock to see what would happen....

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