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Old 31-08-2016, 17:30   #76
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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I know in a PC world you are not allowed to call people out on mistruths, you have to be gentle...and beat around the bush. Sorry...Truth is truth with me amigo and if you don't like it...you are welcomed to add me to your Ignore list so you don't have to be subjected to the horror of being called out when you make a ludicrous statement.

Generation Snowflake doesn't cut it here.
That's a prime example of why marketers warn against participating on public forums. When you can't control the content the whole sales pitch falls apart. If they didn't warn you they should have.
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Old 31-08-2016, 17:36   #77
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
That's a prime example of why marketers warn against participating on public forums. When you can't control the content the whole sales pitch falls apart. If they didn't warn you they should have.
Ha ha ha...what sales pitch...I don't sell insulation and that is what this thread is about.

Now we know you don't like being called out for a BS comment, so you try and turn it into another issue. Sorry amigo...try again...come on you can do better than that, I'm actually a bit disappointed in you.

You had better go back and delete this post before you realize what you said and realize that you were in agreement with me but still couldn't fight back the urge to argue with me...ha ha ha....halarious.

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It is linear and Third day was correct.
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Old 31-08-2016, 17:40   #78
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Waterrat, what makes his argument about "doubling" the insulation even more ludicrous is that it takes exponential more insulation to achieve the doubling effect. Example: R10 to R20 requires and addition or R10. R20 to R40 requires an additional R20.
R40 to R80 requires an additional R40.
The conclusion here is that adding increasing amounts of insulation for decreasing energy savings is not worth it beyond a fairly low R value.
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Old 31-08-2016, 17:53   #79
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Kmacdonald I don't think Third day will get it. He is still too stuck on his 50%. That is one problem with percentages. I guess he can have his 5% of the pizza with a cold beer and we can eat the other 95% of the pizza with our cold beer while we watch him rip apart his galley to gain the 5% total energy savings. To each their own.
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Old 31-08-2016, 18:03   #80
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Kmacdonald I don't think Third day will get it. He is still too stuck on his 50%. That is one problem with percentages. I guess he can have his 5% of the pizza with a cold beer and we can eat the other 95% of the pizza with our cold beer while we watch him rip apart his galley to gain the 5% total energy savings. To each their own.
It's like charging lead acid batteries, 50% to 80% SOC is the easy part but the 80% to 100% takes a long time. Insulation has the same effect. You can get to R20 easy enough but getting to R30 or R40 is going to be costly and inefficient. Sure, holding plate refrigeration might require it but why spend extra on it AND the insulation. Must be the "new math".
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Old 31-08-2016, 18:14   #81
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Waterrat, what makes his argument about "doubling" the insulation even more ludicrous is that it takes exponential more insulation to achieve the doubling effect. Example: R10 to R20 requires and addition or R10. R20 to R40 requires an additional R20.
R40 to R80 requires an additional R40.
The conclusion here is that adding increasing amounts of insulation for decreasing energy savings is not worth it beyond a fairly low R value.

You can get to R20 easy enough but getting to R30 or R40 is going to be costly and inefficient
ha ha ha...who ever said it was reasonable, desirable, or even practicle
to use more than R30? What thread are you guys reading?
Certainly not me, in fact I made the point that you didn't want to do it earlier when I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
What he is failing to see and you are falling into the trap with him is that playing with the Marginal Utility numbers on the extreams of sub R10 and plus R30 and then applying that to the reasonable range in the middle is bogus and totally leads you to the wrong Marginal Utility Analysis outcome.
You don't want/need to be below R10 or above R30.
Let me put it in the form of a Nursery Rhyme, that may help you guys:
Below R10 is too Hard said Mama Bear.
Above R30 is too Soft said Daddy Bear
But between R10 and R30 is just right said Baby Bear.

See what happens when you stop posting on the issue of the thread and get off on personal attack tangents....it leads to your embarrassment, not even realizing that pages ago I made the exact point you are attacking me for "not getting and understanding"...ha ha ha...absolutely fresh as my kids would say.

But this is how it works folks. I refute their bogus point but they won't circle back to deal with that...the next thing you know my mamma will be brought into the discussion out of desperation. Well she's Italian and you don't want to mess with her brothers from Napoli...ha ha ha...I gotta go check on my Epoxy up on deck, but you boys have fun, just don't skin your knees and come crying to me if you're roughhousing around.
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Old 31-08-2016, 18:35   #82
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Engel MB40V-H

3 amp at 12volts

For sake of argument R-10 and it runs a high 12 hours a day. 36 amp hours
I double insulation to R 20 I now use 18 amp hours a day.
I double insulation R 20 to R40 I now use 9 amp hours a day
I double again R40 to R 80 (crazy) I now use 4.5 amp hours a day.

My first addition of R10 gave me 18 amp hour savings.
My last addition of R40 gave me 4.5 amp hours savings.
Third Day would you say these are reasonable numbers? Maybe a 12 hours is a little high but I had to make assumption to make even comparison some how.

Plus throwing out opening, full, half full and empty. Are the numbers above sound to your experience?
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Old 31-08-2016, 18:37   #83
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

But this is how it works folks. I refute their bogus point but they won't circle back to deal with that...the next thing you know my mamma will be brought into the discussion out of desperation. Well she's Italian and you don't want to mess with her brothers from Napoli...ha ha ha...I gotta go check on my Epoxy up on deck, but you boys have fun, just don't skin your knees and come crying to me if you're roughhousing around.

Really this does not add to your credentials.
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Old 31-08-2016, 18:47   #84
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Third Day would you say these are reasonable numbers? Maybe a 12 hours is a little high but I had to make assumption to make even comparison some how.

Plus throwing out opening, full, half full and empty. Are the numbers above sound to your experience?
That's a good unit.
The thing Engel gets right is to keep the size SMALL so that helps with their overall power usage. But they only have an inch of polyiso for insulation, so that is a R-value of 6.5. So to really answer your question we need to ask at what Ambient temperatures are you asking about? Because my Engel runs almost continually 24hrs per day in the Sea of Cortez and tropical heat when I have it in deep freezer mode. So yes the amp draw is relatively low (2.8A) but if you are going to the tropics you should be budgeting a daily Amp hour usage of 67AH to keep that unit as a deep freezer, which is how I used and tested it. Now since it takes about double (I know here we go again) the power to keep a freezer vs a refrigerator you won't experience the high run times, but 12hrs day is certainly on the low side (again for the tropics). I would budget 18hrs, so a total daily power usage of 50AH.

These units really are not designed to add insulation to the outside, but I guess you could and in doing so the general 50% decrease in daily Amp Hour usage per doubling of the R-value would apply. So add a 1" sheet of PolyIso for $20 from Home Depot and you just saved mucho Amp Hours Amigo.

Oh and when I said:
"I gotta go check on my Epoxy up on deck, but you boys have fun, just don't skin your knees and come crying to me if you're roughhousing around."

Quips like that may not add to my credentials, but it's a false assumption to think I'm trying...but it did crack me up and that's all that matters. Come on admit it...that was fully, especially my Goldylox too cold, too hot and just right analogy. Sheesh...where has the humor in the world gone?
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:00   #85
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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That's a good unit.
The thing Engel gets right is to keep the size SMALL so that helps with their overall power usage. But they only have an inch of polyiso for insulation, so that is a R-value of 6.5. So to really answer your question we need to ask at what Ambient temperatures are you asking about? Because my Engel runs almost continually 24hrs per day in the Sea of Cortez and tropical heat when I have it in deep freezer mode. So yes the amp draw is relatively low (2.8A) but if you are going to the tropics you should be budgeting a daily Amp hour usage of 67AH to keep that unit as a freezer, which is how I used and tested it. Now since it takes about double (I know here we go again) the power to keep a freezer vs a refrigerator you won't experience the high run times, but 12hrs day is certainly on the low side (again for the tropics). I would budget 18hrs, so a total daily power usage of 50AH.

These units really are not designed to add insulation to the outside, but I guess you could and in doing so the general 50% decrease in daily Amp Hour usage per doubling of the R-value would apply. So add a 1" sheet of PolyIso for $20 from Home Depot and you just saved mucho Amp Hours Amigo.

Oh and when I said:
"I gotta go check on my Epoxy up on deck, but you boys have fun, just don't skin your knees and come crying to me if you're roughhousing around."

Quips like that may not add to my credentials, but it's a false assumption to think I'm trying...but it did crack me up and that's all that matters. Come on admit it...that was fully, especially my Goldylox too cold, too how and just right analogy. Sheesh...where has the humor in the world gone?
I do appreciate the details you added and do not doubt those details. I also understand why you added those details. They are important. What I am asking given the basic assumptions of what I posted. Would each doubling of R value have similar effect on efficiency gained?
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:12   #86
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
What I am asking given the basic assumptions of what I posted. Would each doubling of R value have similar effect on efficiency gained?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Engel MB40V-H

3 amp at 12volts

For sake of argument R-10 and it runs a high 12 hours a day. 36 amp hours
I double insulation to R 20 I now use 18 amp hours a day.
I double insulation R 20 to R40 I now use 9 amp hours a day
I double again R40 to R 80 (crazy) I now use 4.5 amp hours a day.

My first addition of R10 gave me 18 amp hour savings.
My last addition of R40 gave me 4.5 amp hours savings. .
Yep...right on track.
The basic 50% power usage reduction with each successive doubling of the R-value. No one in this thread ever said anyone would do an R80 for example, but the basic laws of Physics work the same. We have built and tested a few R100 boxes for the US Military...now those were fun. Not practical..but when has the US Military ever been practical? But they still bought a few...it's only tax payers money.
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:33   #87
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Yep...right on track.
The basic 50% power usage reduction with each successive doubling of the R-value. No one in this thread ever said anyone would do an R80 for example, but the basic laws of Physics work the same. We have built and tested a few R100 boxes for the US Military...now those were fun. Not practical..but when has the US Military ever been practical? But they still bought a few...it's only tax payers money.
I just reread the whole thing. I threw you off with the whole 5% gain when you want to say 50%. Yes 50% for each doubling but in my 5% illustration it was 5% of the whole not just one doubling. Diminishing returns exponential decay as we increase R value with 20-40 being the sweet spot. Are we done?
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:34   #88
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Until we know the percentage of energy lost due to conduction and that of opening the frig we really can't do justice to this thread. If 90% of the energy is lost due to openings then the insulation doesn't matter very much. I'm not saying it is 90% but just making a point. Top loading vs side loading plays a significant role also I would guess. Anyone have any real data on this?
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:43   #89
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Are we done?
Ya...but what do we do now for entertainment?

Kmac has a good point...
and on a front loading unit we saw up to a 27% increase in energy usage from the door openings and ingress of humidity that then condenses and insulates the evaporation plate. Actually the thin evap plate suffors more of an efficiency loss from frost build up than a holding plate due to the design nature differences. But let's save that fight for another thread since love and roses have broken out here...
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Old 31-08-2016, 19:43   #90
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Until we know the percentage of energy lost due to conduction and that of opening the frig we really can't do justice to this thread. If 90% of the energy is lost due to openings then the insulation doesn't matter very much. I'm not saying it is 90% but just making a point. Top loading vs side loading plays a significant role also I would guess. Anyone have any real data on this?
Top vs side loading would make a huge difference. How much air space, and proper air seal would make a huge difference on efficiency. I saw a thread somewhere either here or the other forum comparing average real world amp draw.
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