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Old 31-08-2016, 13:01   #61
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by fallingeggs View Post
It always surprises me that folks like Rich entertain disgruntled commentators as much as they do.
It's called procrastination from real work...ha ha ha
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Old 31-08-2016, 13:06   #62
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
If at R-2 I use 100 amp hours and I go to R-10 I will save 80.95 amp hours of my 100 amp hours needed. If I go to R-20 I will save and additional 9.5 amp hours. If I then add an additional R-20 for total of R-40 I will save 4.76% of the total. Therefore if my total energy needed to run my fridge at a given R vale would look like this.

R-2 = 100 amp hours
R-10 = 19.05 amp hours
R-20 = 9.55 amp hours
R-40 = 4.79 amp hours.
And one more quickie...
If you have a R2 box you don't have a refrigerator..it won't stay cold enough to cool cerveza.

So that is another factor that is throwing off your data and Marginal Utility Analysis. 100AH is a fake number that is throwing off your analysis. Run it again using an R-Value of 6.5 or 10 (which is most of the premade boxes like the Engel drop in you mentioned). You will then get another hint about the data analysis flaw and your numbers will change.

Deck is warm...Epoxy is warm in the sun...so Class Dismissed for Recess.
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Old 31-08-2016, 13:23   #63
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
I wish it was that linear. It is sort of like increasing the gauge of wire to run you windless in the bow. Ever decreasing rate of returns. Going from 3% voltage loss to 1% Voltage loss then try to get to 0.5% voltage loss. If you are at say R10 you are around 90% efficient and you jump to R20 you are maybe 96% efficient and then jump to R 40 you are at 98% efficient. Diminishing returns on investment. So in Amp hours if you are at say 80 amp hours at R10 then R20 is not going to save you 40 amp hours but but maybe 4 amp hours. Open your ice box once or twice or don' t have a good seal and you can throw that in the head. See what I am saying. I do wish it was linear.

Depending on the temperature difference inside vs outside R10 (90%) would be a little low but best bang for buck where R20 (96%)can save a couple more amp hours but R40 (98%) might only save an additional 0.5 amp hours.

My math above is not exact but a relative illustration of gain to be had.
It is linear and Third day was correct.
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Old 31-08-2016, 13:29   #64
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

A square box has the greatest volume to surface area ratio and therefore the greatest thermal efficiency. That needs to be considered along with refrigerator type when designing the insulation values needed.
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Old 31-08-2016, 13:57   #65
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

When I first posted I just thought there was a slight misconception but at this point it appears more of sales pitch and I shined a little light with reality and you got upset and would like to pound on chest and use bravado to make a pointless point.

I did not say R-10 is the cats meow or the best. Energy saved for the first R10 is significantly more then second R10 added. 50% of 10 means a lot less then 50% of 100. That is the point I am trying to make that seems to go nowhere. The energy savings of real amps is magnitudes larger for your first R15 then for your second R15. I would fully agree that R20 to R30 is probably the sweet spot for marine refrigeration.

You seem to be blind to the fact that the 50% you are gaining is from a number that is getting exponentially smaller. Your sales pitch gives the impression that R10 to R20 is saving the same number of actual amp hours as going from R2 to R10. It is not linear it is exponential. It is a great sales method today only everything is already marked down 50% and you get an additional 50% of. That does not mean you get 100% off. You end up with 75% off. It is filed with misconceptions.

100$ full price
50% off = 50$ R10
50% off the sale price = 25$ R20
50% off the sale price = 12.50$ R40

That first 50% is worth 4 times as much as my third 50% off. What I have a problem with is the misleading of the actual value in gain of real time amp hours. The first R10 is significantly more valuable cost per inch vs savings then the second R10. Exponential decay. There is a point of diminishing returns on investment.

If you find all of my math and reasoning so untenable then I hope you hire a lot of great scientist to interpret all of your testing but you may have me from the sales perspective. Your interpretation and illustration makes it sound a lot better.
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:16   #66
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

If you double the R value you cut the heat flow in half, but as the R value increases the heat flow decreases resulting in smaller absolute gains for increased R value.
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:25   #67
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

I agree with your numbers Waterrat, and see your point.
It's clearly a balancing act with space, insulation, box size, energy cost, energy availability, etc. It certainly isn't a binary function and everyone's mileage will vary.
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:29   #68
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Engel MB40V-H

3 amp at 12volts

For sake of argument R-10 and it runs a high 12 hours a day. 36 amp hours
I double insulation to R 20 I now use 18 amp hours a day.
I double insulation R 20 to R40 I now use 9 amp hours a day
I double again R40 to R 80 (crazy) I now use 4.5 amp hours a day.

My first addition of R10 gave me 18 amp hour savings.
My last addition of R40 gave me 4.5 amp hours savings.

That is either at huge cost of space or money. For less then three hundred buck I can add 2 T105 batteries giving me 112.5 usable amp hours that could run the original fridge for three days. Aerogel and vacuum panels don't seem worth it in most situations.
Kmacdonald look up difference between linear decay and exponential decay.
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:35   #69
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
I agree with your numbers Waterrat, and see your point.
It's clearly a balancing act with space, insulation, box size, energy cost, energy availability, etc. It certainly isn't a binary function and everyone's mileage will vary.
Thank you Kmacdonald. It is certainly not binary and I am sure there are situation where it is prudent to go to R 40 or higher and pay for the aerogel or vacuum panels. Just saying for typical user probably better solution.

Now who wants to talk about guns and anchors?
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:39   #70
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

It should also be noted insulation does nothing to reduce losses due to opening the refrigerator. I don't know what percentages of losses are due to openings.
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:11   #71
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Thanks for slowly but surely coming around to my point...it took you a while, but you finally got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
For sake of argument R-10 and it runs a high 12 hours a day. 36 amp hours
I double insulation to R 20 I now use 18 amp hours a day.
I double insulation R 20 to R40 I now use 9 amp hours a day.
But who are you arguing with? Yourself...because you said this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Going from R20 to R40 is less then a 5% reduction in energy.
Then you said this....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
So real world wise going from R20 to R40 will only make a minuscule difference in your amp hour if you open your fridge a couple of times a day to drink said beer. Your 5% savings will really only be .5% savings if you are lucky.
Ofcourse lets not forget this one...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
I hear crazy numbers like saving 40 amp hours going from R-20 to R-40. That seems really high. Real world gains with opening during use and half full the difference between a R10 to R20 to R40 are not going to be 50% not even close.
I could post others but the truth is...if someone can't understand that for each time they double the R-value of their insulation it cuts their energy usage in half (that is 50% less) and that simple math says that cutting a number in half each successive time make is a smaller number, well they must be a product of the new common core educamation.

All I'm selling is truth...but you seem to be fresh out of currency today. Come back tomorrow and try again.
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:26   #72
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Waterrat made it clear that there is diminishing return as the R value is increased beyond a certain level. He is correct that continuing to double the R value doesn't continue to save the same amount of energy as the initial doubling of R value. I guess with cold plate refrigeration it is necessary to encourage adding R value beyond practical limits of space and money to achieve satisfactory performance. Given identical boxes, cold plate refrigeration is less energy efficient than evaporator refrigeration. It's not worth it to me to tear up the galley in order to add more insulation to the refrigerator in or to be able to consume more energy with cold plate refrigeration-----it just doesn't make sense to me but YMMV.
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:31   #73
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Waterrat made it clear that there is diminishing return as the R value is increased beyond a certain level. He is correct that continuing to double the R value doesn't continue to save the same amount of energy as the initial doubling of R value. I guess with cold plate refrigeration it is necessary to encourage adding R value beyond practical limits of space and money to achieve satisfactory performance. Given identical boxes, cold plate refrigeration is less energy efficient than evaporator refrigeration. It's not worth it to me to tear up the galley in order to add more insulation to the refrigerator in or to be able to consume more energy with cold plate refrigeration-----it just doesn't make sense to me but YMMV.
Now that's bullshit...the type of refrigeration system a person has means absolutely NOTHING to the laws of physics and what R-value doubling does to power usage. Sorry...nice try to bring an outside issue in...I'm not however taking your 6th grade bait.

Originally Posted by Waterrat10
"Going from R20 to R40 is less then a 5% reduction in energy"
That is just an incorrect statement...sorry...words mater.
It would be correct if he said a 50% reduction in energy, not less than 5%.

He only became clear on his understanding and admission after I had to work with him and beat him into seeing the truth. It's a thankless job, but someone has to do it.

Now for you...let's save that session for another day because it's a deep dive.
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:40   #74
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

Are you always that rude? You know you lost the argument when you resort to profanity, rude and demeaning behavior. No one expected any more from you though.
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:51   #75
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Re: Freezer Insulation of R-40 per inch or better

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Are you always that rude? You know you lost the argument when you resort to profanity, rude and demeaning behavior. No one expected any more from you though.
I know in a PC world you are not allowed to call people out on mistruths, you have to be gentle...and beat around the bush. Sorry...Truth is truth with me amigo and if you don't like it...you are welcomed to add me to your Ignore list so you don't have to be subjected to the horror of being called out when you make a ludicrous statement.

Generation Snowflake doesn't cut it here.
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