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Old 13-03-2012, 13:33   #31
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

Some updates thanks to bluetriguy's directions.











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Old 13-03-2012, 15:23   #32
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

I would like to create a place for everyone thinking about electric, and diesel-electric propulsion, fully electric galley, electric dinghy, diesel DC gen-sets, and 48 VDC (and higher) inverters, can communicate ideas, links, experiences, and pictures. Since I have been the victim of thread closures when such topics veer off, I have added this topic to my own forum. When your on your own turf, you know posting history will not be lost. My forum is a rather oddball mix of subjects, 80% hot rods (T-buckets) 10% for family care givers, and 10% sailing/cruising. This is where you will find the topic "Integration of systems" in the "Hybrid Drives For Sailboats" thread that is part of the "SAILBOAT CRUISER'S FORUM". All are welcome, please give links to all the breaking news on hybrid drives that you have come across here....
Integration of systems
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Old 13-03-2012, 16:27   #33
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

Two years ago I installed EP on my sailboat, a Dufour 34, for $4,200 ($4,000 if not considering spares and some items I did not install, even less if offsetting the sale of the old diesel).

I designed and built the system, a process I truly enjoyed. The system is described here Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion and here Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion (and in some other threads in CF).

Regarding kits, they will solve only part of the puzzle, as they do not include the batteries and charger, and then there is the installation and looking for solutions regarding what is no longer on the boat (as the engine panel, which leaves a big hole; or the throttle control). In the end, the kit saves you the integration of components (mainly motor-controller-solenoid and a few other items). For someone technically inclined, that integration is relatively simple, particularly with available online resources like the Yahoo EP forum. Either from scratch or kit, it is doable.

Regarding books, Electric Propulsion for Boats by Charles Mathys describes the author’s experience designing, building a testing many systems. As mentioned before, Yahoo EP is a fantastic source of information.

As per hybrid systems, I agree on that they combine the best of both worlds, but IMHO it is still a technology in its early stages and far from its true potential. “Hybrids” today combine a standalone diesel with a standalone EP system into one unit. I can envision a hybrid system built from scratch that will be very different from what is available today.

I'm attaching a few pics showing how my system during installation.

Alberto
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Old 13-03-2012, 16:31   #34
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

Alberto,

How do you like your EP system? Anything you would do differently?
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Old 13-03-2012, 16:57   #35
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

Nice looking installation!
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Old 13-03-2012, 17:02   #36
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

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Originally Posted by bluetriguy View Post
Nice looking installation!
Hi, thanks again for the heads up on the Lemco/Yanmar alliance. Got me Internet diving to the point of not wanting to lose all these informative links, so took yours, mine and others to my forum for "safe keeping".
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Old 13-03-2012, 17:12   #37
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

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Alberto,

How do you like your EP system? Anything you would do differently?
Bob,

We have been extremely pleased with it. We were perfectly aware of the limitations, mainly range, but so far it has not been an issue. With the generator (still not used) it should be less of a concern.

After two years and having experienced the difference in torque compared to ICEs, I was recently thinking about possible alternatives, like having the six batteries rearranged into a double-capacity 36V system with direct drive (or adding two batteries for a 48V system) and switching to a 3-blade prop, but only as a mental exercise. One of the beauties of EP is its versatility...

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Old 13-03-2012, 17:23   #38
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

Alberto,

You got that right, versatility. I really like the 4.4Kw inverters that run on 48 VDC. So the propulsion bank is also the house bank.
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Old 13-03-2012, 17:43   #39
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

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Bob,

We have been extremely pleased with it. We were perfectly aware of the limitations, mainly range, but so far it has not been an issue. With the generator (still not used) it should be less of a concern.

After two years and having experienced the difference in torque compared to ICEs, I was recently thinking about possible alternatives, like having the six batteries rearranged into a double-capacity 36V system with direct drive (or adding two batteries for a 48V system) and switching to a 3-blade prop, but only as a mental exercise. One of the beauties of EP is its versatility...

Alberto
A lot of the systems I've seen out there do run a three blade prop for recharging using the motor as a gen.

On your setup, do you find the single bearing block on your driven pulley sufficient? Myself I would have supported it between two bearings, fore and aft.
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Old 13-03-2012, 17:54   #40
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

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On your setup, do you find the single bearing block on your driven pulley sufficient? Myself I would have supported it between two bearings, fore and aft.
It was designed to accept two bearings if needed (the second bearing mounted top of the flaps in the frame in front of the large pulley, and the shaft's extra length). The bearing is self-aligning and the radial loads minimal, easier to align with the propeller shaft than with two bearings (two bearings would have required very accurate alignment, and then aligning with the prop shaft).

Also, the motor can be mounted in different positions to allow for different gear ratios.

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Old 13-03-2012, 18:50   #41
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I have built EVs (electric vehicles) and have purchased from Cloud Electric, LLC
before. I'm looking at using this motor Motor "Motenergy" ME0913 Brushless PMSM BLDC
I second that motor it is what I have been leaning towards as well. From my understanding brushless motors are maintenance free as with a brushed motor they need to be replaced and you also have the sparking issues. Brushless = safer = less maintenance.

Also I have been considering 72 volt rather than 48 as I am trying to drive 22000 in displacement. Is it not true that the above mentioned motor is more Efficient at 72 volts compared to 48. Also I believe it would be fairly easy to switch from 48 to 72 by changing battery comfiguration and motor controller.

Speaking of motors and motor controllers at less than 1000 bucks or so for each do you not think it would be economical to have a full set of Spares?
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Old 13-03-2012, 19:12   #42
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

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I second that motor it is what I have been leaning towards as well. From my understanding brushless motors are maintenance free as with a brushed motor they need to be replaced and you also have the sparking issues. Brushless = safer = less maintenance.
Your right about Brushless = safer = less maintenance, and if you use propane that could be an issue as that motor will reside in your bilge, lowest point of the boat and we all know how that 1.5X heavier than air propane would find its way down there.

I'm going with an electric galley, so no propane. That explosion that killed the Canadian cruisers yesterday might have been propane. Investigation is still in the early stages.
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Old 13-03-2012, 19:17   #43
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Yeah I read about that explosion has me a little worried as I have been using propane all winter for cooking and heating. Any ideas on venting any accumulation from the bilge?

Been also thinking about converting cooking to electric as well.I would love to not have any fuel on board at all
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Old 13-03-2012, 19:17   #44
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Re: ELECTRIC SAILBOAT . . . on the cheap?

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Cap't Mike!
What I couldn't believe was the PRICE! NGC is selling that system for nearly $8,000????? I'm trying to figure out how it is possible to charge that much for a motor, controller, throttle, and mounting brackets. Stunned is the word. Looks like if I go EP it will be with a DIY setup but I'll have to get educated on this stuff---I don't consider myself a dummy, but this is a field I have never looked into seriously before. Anyway, thanks for the wake-up call guys! Now my wheels are turning!
I converted my Catalina 30 to EP last spring. It's great. Used the Propulsion Marine 5.5KW system (which runs about $5k). I'm a big DIY kind of guy, and redid my own wiring and plumbing. I entirely remodelled my own house as well. That being said, by the time you purchase all the parts in the Propulsion Marine kit (and make sure you get the same ones), buy the wire (that stuff ain't cheap) and connectors, you'll probably be at about $5k, and that's assuming you don't have to do or buy anything again because you bought something cheaper that turned out to be "creatively rated or specified"

It's nice to have someone else invest all the time and effort in the R&D, and avoid having to rebuy things that don't work out. I know James (owner of Above the Waterline and Propulsion Marine) personally, and I've seen what he's been through on the R&D end, and I think I ended up saving money in the long run by spending a touch more up front. The system also uses a gearbox instead of belts, and has a few nice bells and whistles like the ClearView display and custom programming (nice to do things like change the ramp up/ ramp down rates and such).

After all the dust cleared, I still came out ahead of a diesel repower, and that doesn't include what I sold my old diesel for (it still ran but sorely needed a rebuild and new heat exchanger). I would have probably spent 15-20% less if I just rebuilt the old one, but I've never once regretted going the EP route.

The admiral and I are looking to upgrade to a bigger boat, and it pains me to have to go back to diesel again. The first boat we went and looked at, I cracked open the engine compartment to have a peek, and the first words she said were, "What would it take to make this electric?" It'll be a while, but I think the practicality of EP, mainly serial hybrid, will move up into the 40' range eventually.

Feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions about my experience. EP isn't for everyone, or every boat, but if you're willing to accept the drawbacks, the advantages are legion.

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Old 13-03-2012, 19:26   #45
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Re: Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ?

JRM, by looking at Aberto's pictures I see they are using a Mars motor. Is that the motor your using? If it is, that motor at 96 volts is good for 12 Kw cont., 30 Kw peak. That should have no trouble on a 40 footer, right?
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