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Old 26-08-2011, 19:39   #121
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I can't comment on the heavy handed aspect but aren't all boats normally run dictator style.

The captain issues the order, the crew comply - end of story; well unless the admiral has a different viewpoint, then the wise captain listens; however, the crew still comply.
having sailed as skipper with many novice crew,it is easy to assume that what looks like common sense to you, is pure laziness or stupidity on the part of the crew.

every experinced sailor has their way of doing things,learnt from many miles of practically doing it automatically,in the dark on a moving platform.

i2f's story is one i've heard many times before,as much as i commiserate with him it was his decision to proceed to sea with basically 2 inadequate seamen.

mel may have sailed many miles on the boat,and im sure she has gained a lot of experince,but as far as i can gather she is only a second set of eyes,programed to wake the skipper.

as for the crew as they say "you pay peanuts,you get monkeys"

at the end of the day you have to be able to carry out every operation on board yourself,untill crew have reached a level of competence,that you feel happy with.

too many people head off into the blue these days relying on auto pilots and radars,unable to hand steer or keep a watch without, amongst other things,as an example.
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Old 26-08-2011, 19:50   #122
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
.......

at the end of the day you have to be able to carry out every operation on board yourself,untill crew have reached a level of competence,that you feel happy with.

too many people head off into the blue these days relying on auto pilots and radars,unable to hand steer or keep a watch without, amongst other things,as an example.
+1
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Old 26-08-2011, 20:42   #123
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I can't comment on the heavy handed aspect but aren't all boats normally run dictator style.

The captain issues the order, the crew comply - end of story; well unless the admiral has a different viewpoint, then the wise captain listens; however, the crew still comply.
I think a wise captain considers what the crew has to say. No one knows everything.
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Old 26-08-2011, 20:52   #124
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think a wise captain considers what the crew has to say. No one knows everything.
Agreed and after perhaps valuable input from crews, the captain considers it all and issues the his/her order and the crew comply regardless of their personal feelings or of any majority agreement.

The point being that this arrangement is "dictator style" in so far as the order is dictated by the captain and by not some cosy democratic agreement between all parties where it is the majority has the most rights.
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Old 26-08-2011, 21:07   #125
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think a wise captain considers what the crew has to say. No one knows everything.
a wise captain with a good crew will allways listen to his crew,if he/ she want's them to continue sailing on a voyage with frequent stops and oppertunities to hop off.

a despot will generally find themselves frequently looking for new crew or having to sail solo(or short handed with the wife who cant leave,but would like to.......)
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Old 26-08-2011, 21:12   #126
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Re: Crew Crap

Ahh... I see we have progressed from "dictator style" on to "despots", well my take is that depots have no place on a cruising yacht (either as captain or crew) but I am happy to serve under a wise dictator .
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Old 26-08-2011, 21:20   #127
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Agreed and after perhaps valuable input from crews, the captain considers it all and issues the his/her order and the crew comply regardless of their personal feelings or of any majority agreement.

The point being that this arrangement is "dictator style" in so far as the order is dictated by the captain and by not some cosy democratic agreement between all parties where it is the majority has the most rights.

I think you can be democratic about some things -- will we anchor out or pay for a transient slip? Hot dogs or hamburgers tonight?

But when it comes to 99% of sailing decisions, the captain is the owner and the one paying the insurance premium. In my case it's my home, and please don't do something stupid with it when I gave different instructions!

When I was a relative beginner I had a friend on my boat, also a relative beginner. We ended up in a very difficult situation, on a very tender, small (25') boat with a 5' following sea and lee to the shore. My sailing companion didn't know about that "lee to the shore" thing and was very upset when, as things went sour (long story), I moved the boat further from shore. I had studied the chart and knew that shallow water extended quite far from the shore line.

I knew some things she did not know, and she had a hard time believing it. But I was right to "Get the HeXX out of Dodge" and away from that shoal, and go to deeper water.

She learned that eventually, but that day was questioning every single thing I did at the time, including what knot I used to tie my rigging knife to my shorts before going forward to free up the headsail the hard way ....

@@ wanted me to use a granny knot instead of a bowlin. What did she care??? The headsail's leech line caught on the safety line and would not drop, and it had to be freed. I had to make sure I didn't lose the knife overboard. It was not worth a debate.
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Old 26-08-2011, 21:37   #128
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Re: Crew Crap

making them walk the plank was a very effective way of solving crew problems untill recently but that was seen as too harsh,so keel hauling and flogging was brought in instead,then they introduced the rum ration and lemons,salt pork and biscuits........

luxury...........
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Old 27-08-2011, 07:29   #129
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
The reference is to Imagine2Frolic's experience. There is always somebody who does not read the whole experience and understand what was needed, expected, and not delivered.
- - I am also still alive with active metabolized cancer and an undeterminable amount of time left to live depending upon how well the treatments work.
- - The treatments sap away almost 80% of your normal strength and trying to do things that were physically easy last year are beyond or near the limit of what can be done now. When forced to do the work expected of the crew by yourself just to stay alive, work that pushes you beyond the physical limits of your body, you can develop a bad attitude real quick.
- - The need for competent and especially a strong extra crew member was what was needed and expected. What he got was essentially a scam artist and it nearly cost them the boat and lives. I2F was being really nice to return, I would have thrown the guy over the side.
- - So before you cast judgement read the rest of the story . . .
I read the entire story - 3 times! This is probably more than the number of times you read it. So my comment is taking into account the entire situation and everything he said.
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Old 27-08-2011, 07:42   #130
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Agreed and after perhaps valuable input from crews, the captain considers it all and issues the his/her order and the crew comply regardless of their personal feelings or of any majority agreement.

The point being that this arrangement is "dictator style" in so far as the order is dictated by the captain and by not some cosy democratic agreement between all parties where it is the majority has the most rights.
No where did I say that democracy (majority vote) should rule on a yacht. My reference to dictator style is more about the manner, abrasion, abusive style and lack of common decency. A captain who treats crew like human beings can still have all the authority he/she desires but will most likely also enjoy respect. I for one, would hate to be treated in such a disrepectful and obnoxious manner. If this is right up your alley, so be it - different strokes for different folks. Most people would prefer to be treated with respect.
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Old 27-08-2011, 07:52   #131
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by MooseMoney View Post
No where did I say that democracy (majority vote) should rule on a yacht. My reference to dictator style is more about the manner, abrasion, abusive style and lack of common decency. A captain who treats crew like human beings can still have all the authority he/she desires but will most likely also enjoy respect. I for one, would hate to be treated in such a disrepectful and obnoxious manner. If this is right up your alley, so be it - different strokes for different folks. Most people would prefer to be treated with respect.
Well it seems you are referring to the more modern meaning of the word "dictator" whereas I am referring to the original meaning.

While not an authoritative source, this may help to distinguish between the usage of the word.
Dictator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 27-08-2011, 08:00   #132
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Re: Crew Crap

osirisail,

Thanks for the words.

It is funny how anyone can read I was heavy handed. Can someone explain where to me that information comes from? Yes, the crew was denied working on the boat. Only after he proved himself completely incompetent, and without a clew. What gave him the right to lie to me? I certainly was very honest with my needs. I am tryting to get Imagine home to sell her if I am dying. Somewhere here I think there is some lack of knowledge, and or reading comprehension skills from some.

As I typed, I misjudged the crew. I take blame for that, but not for the lie told to me. The crew said he read my blog, and completely understood my needs. My problem was I took a man's word for what he told me.

What I have learned is that as of now. I need no one, and will continue on with Mel. If I need to sell Imagine, so we can live a comfortable life in the Philippines I will. If my health returns as it has done over the past 60 days. I will sail onto the Philippines, and still live a comfortable life.

Here I am a year ago in the white shirt, in Feb 2011, and yesterday in the yellow trunks.

As far as aza,

Welll I can see your problem. It's a lack of comprehension skills. I typed you would feel sorry for the murderer. I never typed you had a bad childhood. I don't dance with people with 2 left feet, so to avoid your ignorance. I will just push the ignore button.......i2f
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Old 27-08-2011, 08:01   #133
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by MooseMoney View Post
I read the entire story - 3 times! This is probably more than the number of times you read it. So my comment is taking into account the entire situation and everything he said.
Which all goes to underscore the reality that different people will have a very different understanding of a particular incident. Which is probably why there are so many different versions and types of boats, sail and power. Everybody has different ideas of what is what. It would a rather boring world if everybody shared/had the same ideas/thoughts.
- - In this thread it is easy to see how the idea of what constitutes being a skipper/captain varies from a chairman of a democratic committee to a dictator/despot and almost everywhere in between. So there is no "one size fits all."
- - Over the centuries the concepts of marine/naval customs has tended towards investing dictatorial power in the captain of the ship. As stated by others, failure to follow the orders of the capain has progressed from death (walking the plank) to massive infliction of pain (keel-hauling, lashes by cat-n-9 tails) to court marshall and imprisonment and now ejection of the offending crew in the next port. What's next? Demerits on your crew log.
- - This is a subject each prospective skipper/owner needs to spend some serious time thinking about before setting sail. How are you going to handle your crew? Be it some friends; significant other (wife, etc.); or unknown crew member from advertisements.
- - In that arena, trying to filter the good from the bad is basically a crap shoot or how good your luck is at that instant. Scheduling (time constraints), finances and legal repercussions of taking on crew need to be considered carefully.
- - Currently in most of the world the crew you enter a country with is logged and the owner/captain/skipper is legally responsible for that crew member until departure from that country. This can gets real hairy when you take on "hitch-hikers" wanting "free transportation" on their journey around the world. Throwing a "bad" or incompatible crew member off in a foreign port can get real expensive as you are legally and financially responsible for them.
- - So how do you protect yourself ahead of time before that crew member steps on board the boat?
- - How do you "treat/handle" that bad or dangerous or worthless crew member until you can get them off the boat and repatriated?
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Old 27-08-2011, 08:34   #134
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Re: Crew Crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Which all goes to underscore the reality that different people will have a very different understanding of a particular incident. Which is probably why there are so many different versions and types of boats, sail and power. Everybody has different ideas of what is what. It would a rather boring world if everybody shared/had the same ideas/thoughts.
- - In this thread it is easy to see how the idea of what constitutes being a skipper/captain varies from a chairman of a democratic committee to a dictator/despot and almost everywhere in between. So there is no "one size fits all."
- - Over the centuries the concepts of marine/naval customs has tended towards investing dictatorial power in the captain of the ship. As stated by others, failure to follow the orders of the capain has progressed from death (walking the plank) to massive infliction of pain (keel-hauling, lashes by cat-n-9 tails) to court marshall and imprisonment and now ejection of the offending crew in the next port. What's next? Demerits on your crew log.
- - This is a subject each prospective skipper/owner needs to spend some serious time thinking about before setting sail. How are you going to handle your crew? Be it some friends; significant other (wife, etc.); or unknown crew member from advertisements.
- - In that arena, trying to filter the good from the bad is basically a crap shoot or how good your luck is at that instant. Scheduling (time constraints), finances and legal repercussions of taking on crew need to be considered carefully.
- - Currently in most of the world the crew you enter a country with is logged and the owner/captain/skipper is legally responsible for that crew member until departure from that country. This can gets real hairy when you take on "hitch-hikers" wanting "free transportation" on their journey around the world. Throwing a "bad" or incompatible crew member off in a foreign port can get real expensive as you are legally and financially responsible for them.
- - So how do you protect yourself ahead of time before that crew member steps on board the boat?
- - How do you "treat/handle" that bad or dangerous or worthless crew member until you can get them off the boat and repatriated?
valium works quite well with crew that have mental issues.

incompatible crew will generally jump ship at the first oppertunity,at their own expense.

found packing a persons bags for them and leaving them on the dock generally gets the message across to difficult crew,other wise departing without a clearance is allways an option,whilst the said crew is off shopping.........

i2 if i hope i didn't offend you,it was not my intention.

in my experiance sailing long distance in small vessels brings out the best and worst in people.
sooner or later if taking crew on a regular basis you will get a difficult/useless/mentally unbalanced/alcoholic/drug affected/manic depressed/bipolar......etc.

it only takes one person to spoil a trip for all the crew,
i2if,put it down to experiance,and i wish you the best of luck on your future travels.

atoll
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Old 27-08-2011, 08:43   #135
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Re: Crew Crap

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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
osirisail,

Thanks for the words.

It is funny how anyone can read I was heavy handed. Can someone explain where to me that information comes from? Yes, the crew was denied working on the boat. Only after he proved himself completely incompetent, and without a clew. What gave him the right to lie to me? I certainly was very honest with my needs. I am tryting to get Imagine home to sell her if I am dying. Somewhere here I think there is some lack of knowledge, and or reading comprehension skills from some.

As I typed, I misjudged the crew. I take blame for that, but not for the lie told to me. The crew said he read my blog, and completely understood my needs. My problem was I took a man's word for what he told me.

What I have learned is that as of now. I need no one, and will continue on with Mel. If I need to sell Imagine, so we can live a comfortable life in the Philippines I will. If my health returns as it has done over the past 60 days. I will sail onto the Philippines, and still live a comfortable life.

Here I am a year ago in the white shirt, in Feb 2011, and yesterday in the yellow trunks.

As far as aza,

Welll I can see your problem. It's a lack of comprehension skills. I typed you would feel sorry for the murderer. I never typed you had a bad childhood. I don't dance with people with 2 left feet, so to avoid your ignorance. I will just push the ignore button.......i2f
We are entitled to our opinions and I stated mine about the event as written by you.
Good luck with your recovery - God Bless!
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