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Old 20-02-2010, 04:46   #16
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I like the manual water maker idea...I wonder how much difference in efficiencies there would be if the manual/exercise bit was making electricity instead of a mechanical connection to the water maker....may give more flexibility?
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Old 20-02-2010, 07:25   #17
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Hampus - you have not convinced me ;-))))

I still opt for a good supply of toilet paper !

(Though an unexpected wave can be almost as good as any bidet).

b.
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Old 20-02-2010, 07:36   #18
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I read an interesting book on this topic by Jerome Fitxgerald, "Sea-Steading." While I thought that a little too much of the book was devoted to the "Why" rather than the "How, there were some good ideas.
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Old 20-02-2010, 13:14   #19
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A Floating Libertarian/Capitalist Utopia:

The Atlantis Project, a.k.a. Oceania, was a failed scheme (early 90s) to creating free lands on the ocean:

See ➥ General Oceania Info

“... Appropriately named Oceania, our new country will be a floating sea-city. We plan to build it about fifty miles off the coast of Panama in the Caribbean Sea. Hired architect, Sten Sjostrand, has designed this revolutionary new idea for habitation so it may grow almost infinitely. Our structure will consist of hexagonal, modular units (each about 1.60 acres). Although we believe the initial layout will be a horseshoe shaped harbor, the form of Oceania will continually evolve. Its development should be as unique as those who become involved in its various enterprises.

At the outset, Oceania's amenities will include space for light industry, small parks, day-care centers, theaters, schools, libraries, resorts, shopping malls, sports facilities and ports for STOL airplanes, helicopters, and ships. The government of Oceania will be restricted in scope, allowing you to exercise your right to attain and keep honestly acquired wealth, and to use it as only you see fit. Genuine free-enterprise (as envisioned by Adam Smith, Ludwig von Mises, F. A. Hayek and Ayn Rand) will be practiced. Thus, what the market will provide is limited only by the imagination ...”

And ➥
Oceania -- The Atlantis Project

“The Atlantis Project, which proposed the creation of a floating sea city named Oceania, began in February '93, receiving nationwide publicity from The Art Bell Show, Details Magazine, The Miami Herald, Boating Magazine, and worldwide publicity in Canada, New Zealand, Hong Kong, England, and Belgium. The project ended due to lack of interest in April of 1994.”
(Total lifecycle < 3 months)

The Singularity:

The Atlantis Project will not be restarted. Founder Eric Klien's current project is Lifeboat Foundation, a project dedicated to encouraging scientific advancements while helping humanity survive existential risks and possible misuse of increasingly powerful technologies, including genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and robotics/AI, as we move towards the Singularity.

See ➥ Lifeboat Foundation: Safeguarding Humanity
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Old 20-02-2010, 16:43   #20
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Where do you come up with this stuff Gordon? And how can mankind achieve singularity?
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Old 20-02-2010, 17:19   #21
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Talking Simplicity?

Simplicity seems a relative term to me. Simple compared to what and to accomplish what? I've done a fair amount of unsupported kayak camping and, while certainly simple, it was also pretty damn tiring in terms of the effort necessary to do things like secure water and firewood, set up and break a camp, prepare food, capture or gather food, maintain some level of sanitation, and oh yes, propulsion. My sailboat is much more complicated than my kayak but with commensurate increase in livability, range, safety and so on. I have things like pressure water and adequate electrical capacity to support things like nav aids and stereos and refrigeration and so on. Simple? Well, no and glad of it. You just have to keep your debts in terms of cost and maintenance of systems within your abilities (skills and/or money) to service that debt while leaving enough surplus in terms of time and personal energy to enjoy the trip. Think of it as a n-dimensional performance envelope bounded by optimized criterion functions if you like.
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Old 20-02-2010, 19:45   #22
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THERE ARE TWO WAYS . . .

to have enough of anything you need.
One way is to lug a lot of what you need with you, have a generous charging system and plenty of cooking fuel.

The other is to learn to do with less.

LED lights, a small fan and a small TV, to boot.

As far as cooking, I have a big frenzel(really big one from a trashed projector TV) lense and make a box oven for use on deck, when it's worthwhile. Actually I need a smaller lense. Actually, for as little time a microwave gets used(a few times for a couple minutes each), it might be a good idea to have one.

Make sure you only refrigerate what you need and don't get a 40 quart electric cooler to cool what should be 20 quarts of stuff. Make sure you get an energy efficient cooler and almost never open it. Warm water for washing dishes or shower from one of those solar bags.

I would also get those little AA battery solar chargers for my battery equipment.

As far as the electric motor is concerned, as long as a person doesn't fire up his electric to achieve hull-speed simply cause the wind dies, the solar panel should more than replace an hour's use of the electric motor.

If you can beach the sailboat, it won't be much of a sailboat. Maybe a good compromise would be a full-keeled 3' draft with a dagger board.
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Old 20-02-2010, 20:18   #23
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I think there can be a balance between the ideal independence, and total slavish devotion to civilization such that it is. If one was to confine your cruising grounds between 35 degrees N. latitude & 35 degrees S. latitude then one could eliminate the need for an outside heat source for warmth, or do as the nomads in times past and work your way North or South as the seasons progress. By making use of the naturally growing foods ashore and in the sea that would simplify the need for stores, I would gear that end towards simple effective means of food preservation and storage, like a dehydrator, which is merely a screen that allows the sun to dry the food. We hang strips of salmon from the rigging here and even in Alaskan temps. you can dry your fish. You can also build drying racks on the beach for a more mass production mode. One could use the natural fermenting process to produce fuel for an internal combustion engine, and fuel for the stove if you desire a hot meal now and then. The harder parts will be casting your own hardware for use on the vessel, perhaps a compromise could be worked out, maybe exchange transportation or fish, trade to someone who can create the bits of metal that you need to keep your boat going, or perhaps you could carry the molds and raw metal to create your own castings as needed, it might take some time to develop the skill needed to produce a usable product. If you did develop the skill to produce the castings then you have a marketable skill to trade with others. Mostly what one has to do is pay attention to what is going on around you and make the most use of what is available, with a little creative thought come up with innovative answers to day to day challenges.
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Old 21-02-2010, 21:55   #24
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There are really two types of independence we are talking about here. One is the Walden Pond type experience, were we really don't interact or trade with others. I think that would be a miserable existence. The other is where you produce enough that you can trade your product with others, and live very simply. That seems to make the most sense in today's world. I like the craftsman approach. Learn a few skills that will make you valuable, then trade on these skills when you are lacking something or something breaks down on your boat.
I have lived in caves, alone and by myself in the middle of the desert. Challenging it is, fun it is not. The human is a social animal. You are going to want to see what your neighbor is up to, even it it is on the next island.
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Old 21-02-2010, 22:09   #25
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Roger on that newt!
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Old 22-02-2010, 02:18   #26
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1. Unpainted aluminum boat with integral hard dodger. fabricate mounting pads for everything connected to boat (no deck penetrations and no leaks). example: van de stadt Madeira 44 or 46.
2. No engine but rather a very high sail area to displacement ratio.
3. Refleks drip kersone heater with gravity tank
4. 3" of insulation over entire inside of boat.
5. Simple manual foot pump water system and deck water catching system.
6. Windpilot servo vane instead of autopilot
7. No thruhulls below waterline, or prop, so no bonding system needed.
8. Honda 1000 or 2000 generator instead of expensive solar/wind systems that don't last and need constant maintenance. For example, MPPT controllers are good for about 6 months.
9. Rolls 6-volt wet cell batteries (relatively cheap and 10 year warranty)
10. Handheld VHF and GPS -- no other navigation gear that will break anyway
11. keep propane grille in cockpit connected directly to tank - no solenoid that rusts.
12. Use alcohol below because propane emits massive amounts of water vapor.
13. Minimalist 12VDC system with compact fluorescents. LEDs don't last. use caframo fans thruout cuz they last the longest.
14. No sparlfly, worthless radar detector, or electronics of any kind on mast.
15. Keel stepped mast with custom limber holes and dam above deck level to keep water out of bilge.
16. Partial battens only. (No need for heavy and expensive battcars, and no need for
lazyjacks and huge mainsail cover.)
17. Hanked on sails. No need for expensive roller furling. Sails set better.
18. Sailrite sewing machine and related gear. (Do your own canvas)
19. Carry tools for hull and deck touch up and repair. Don't hire out.
20. Wire rigging not rod. And no swages. Cheaper and easier to repair.
21. Skip all exterior navaigation light and use oil lamps on custom mounts. Exterior electronics die quickly unless your a dock jockey weekender.
22. Use heavy marine vinyl cusion covers. all other allow salt water to soak in. Cover the vinyl with easily removable microfiber slip covers.
23. Use quick drying microfiber sheets, pillow cases, underwear, socks, etc.
24. use airhead or some other model of composting toilet with solar vent fan. eliminate holding tank and elaborate septic system that stinks and clogs.
25. keep boat under 25000 lbs so you can use a manual windlass. electric ones break down and tend not to last.
26. use heaviliy insulated hitech icebox instead of refirgeration.
27. make sure your rudder post diameter is as large as possible: stronger, smoother with more bearings.
28. use inflatable as liferaft. liferafts are unrelaible, overpriced garbage.

No need for small boat. The important thing for autonomy is to reduce the number of moving parts, thus greatly reducing maintenance.
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Old 22-02-2010, 03:46   #27
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Welcome to the forum JHook...thats a fairly comprehensive list...thanks...some food for thought for those of us that are building (in our heads) the perfect boat.
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Old 22-02-2010, 07:44   #28
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Hi, JHook,

I bet you inherited. Do you have any idea of how much it costs to build an alloy Van de Stadt Madeira and then equip her to the proposed standards ???

I like your idea, but to many this would mean getting independent long after the crave for independence is subdued by the society.

b.
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Old 22-02-2010, 07:49   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Hampus - you have not convinced me ;-))))

I still opt for a good supply of toilet paper !

(Though an unexpected wave can be almost as good as any bidet).

b.
Darn it... It all fell on the toilet paper

I like the way this thread is going. JHook had lots of interesting ideas. I didn't like the Honda generator though. I still think solar/wind and very low consumption is the way to go.

Make your own toilet paper? http://handicraft.indiamart.com/prod...eed-paper.html

/Hampus
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Old 23-02-2010, 02:36   #30
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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Hi, JHook,

I bet you inherited. Do you have any idea of how much it costs to build an alloy Van de Stadt Madeira and then equip her to the proposed standards ???

I like your idea, but to many this would mean getting independent long after the crave for independence is subdued by the society.

b.
The hull weld-up as described would be around $200,000 USD in the Netherlands. I don't think it would take more than 6 months because they've made many of these before - nothing new here. I didn't inherit and I believe this would be cheaper than updating a similar used boat. Besides, where am I gonna get a boat without an engine and all of it's related systems and components? The boat I want simply is not available other than from scratch.

Beisterveld jachtbouw
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