Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't know a specific statute but most countries exercise control of people crossing thier border. In particular those coming in.

So when he comes back from international waters, he has to cross the border. I'm presuming Austrailia requires a passport to cross the border, hence he would not have the required documentation.
……..

Seems pretty clear cut to me even without being able to quote a statute.

Now that you mention it, it does seem clear. Crossing a border is a subtly different concept from travelling to a foreign place.

So while Chris is not travelling to a foreign port, Chris will be crossing the Aussie border (wherever that is) on return to his mooring.

Presumably that border is defined in some legislative Act. Anyone know which one?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Re home trade journeys made far outside the twelve mile limit I have made trips from Seward Alaska to SF. without custom/immigration requirements.

If I remember correctly.... is there not also an understanding of a country's "Area of Responsibility" ?

Often bounded by their continental shelf or some other zone 2-300 mm out....

Yes, in Oz it is called our Economic Zone or some such. Extends at least to the edge of the continental shelf and beyond in areas where the continental shelf is inconveniently too close

I recall working on an oil rig some 150+ miles off the coast, no passports required until one swing when they were expecting to move the rig. We had to take our passports with us and when the day came to move the rig, they flew some Customs wallas out form the mainland who cleared us out of Oz. The tow was only some 50 or so and when we returned back to Oz, we had to enter via a Customs controlled port. But we did get to buy duty free booze

So perhaps the "entry/exit line" is somewhere 200 miles out.
As posted above, it "must be" defined somewhere in the paperwork.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Fremantle to Bass Strait ports by great circle..... ships don't 'clear out' for that trip....

Next time I have that chart in front of me, I will have to have a look at the GC route and where the Economic Zone line is

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Now that you mention it, it does seem clear. Crossing a border is a subtly different concept from travelling to a foreign place.

So while Chris is not travelling to a foreign port, Chris will be crossing the Aussie border (wherever that is) on return to his mooring.

Presumably that border is defined in some legislative Act. Anyone know which one?

Correct! Crossing a boarder of its self is not illegal. It depends on the intent as well as the 'permissions' you have to do it.

Australians have permission to cross the border for the purpose of transiting between one place in Australia to another, for simple sailing, fishing, and probably a heap of other purposes. No documentation is required. There is a general exemption to do so.

However, if an Australian crosses the border with intent to travel to another place, that person is acting illegally and has broken the law immediately he crosses the 12 mile limit.

All Australian persons, no matter what reason they travel beyond the 12 mile limit become liable for inspection from quarantine Officals.

Non Australians also have permission to cross the border. Again depending on their intent and permissions they have. Documentations are required.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

……………..

You need an Australian passport anytime DEFAT indicates you require a passport. They don't require you to advise popping outside the 12 mile limit during simple passages. It's that simple.

Going around the world on a non stop however, I think you will find they do require it. Though that would be a discussion with them and they can make that decison.

RC, I am really not picking on you .
Surely it isn't some what some walla in DEFAT thinks, surely what is required or not required is enshrined in some act of parliament.

For the record, Chris doesn't trust the bureaucrats in Canberra to know their head from their proverbial but Chris does trust what he reads in the legislation!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Correct! Crossing a boarder of its self is not illegal. It depends on the intent as well as the 'permissions' you have to do it.

Australians have permission to cross the border for the purpose of transiting between one place in Australia to another, for simple sailing, fishing, and probably a heap of other purposes. No documentation is required. There is a general exemption to do so.

However, if an Australian crosses the border with intent to travel to another place, that person is acting illegally and has broken the law immediately he crosses the 12 mile limit.

All Australian persons, no matter what reason they travel beyond the 12 mile limit become liable for inspection from quarantine Officals.

Non Australians also have permission to cross the border. Again depending on their intent and permissions they have. Documentations are required.

Hmm… using the bolded bit above, it would seem Chris is in the clear Chris is travelling from one place in Australia to the same place in Australia for the purpose of simple sailing - a longish sail admittedly but no different than if Chris was hove to just off the coast form 9 months!

Chris is clear that the Quarantine Act applies

[bill good]

Reg a boat as an Australian boat turns it into a piece of Australia. The same as a VH reg aircraft. No requirements when travelling to Lord Howe Island when I was operating aircraft for crew or pax. But when departing for international destinations, the boarder control is the date on the paper work for departure & not arrival where you leave that small part of Australia. This is why the court system is so healthy. ps I never got any duty free on the Lord Howe trips!! pps I now want the same duty free allowance as cruise liners!!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Not to forget, some countries require a foreigner to have a passport so they have some idea of who that person might really be.


But pretty much every country requires a passport to prove that you ARE in fact a returning citizen, not some foreigner trying to sneak back in. No passport? Sure, just sit in this little holding cell until we can find good proof that you really are returning home.

Chris can supply that proof.
Chris has a photo Aussie drivers licence - in Oz, that is proof of identity and Chris has a Birth Certificate has proves citizenship.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by julius222

Hi

Not sea lawyer but sailed Northern Australia. Exited 3 times, entered 4 times. The extra is with a boat I bought in Thailand.

That is relevant because here the Coast WAtch planes are highly visible.

That will be the stumbling block for anyone leaving/entering without correct clearances.

The coast watch plane takes photos of ALL vessels
It calls most vessels and buzzes some

Your friend, Chris, cannot be a hundred miles from his home port, heading for New Zeland and give the Coast Watch a satisfactory answer.

My bet is that no one will chase him but sure as death and taxes, he will be put on a database and his return noted.

He will have a police reception, guaranteed.

There is ZERO chance that he can make such a trip without a passport being required by someone, somewhere.

But hey, you said it was a challenge so when he/she leaves give me a heads up. I would like to keep an eye on the news and see how far he got.

Emphatic, pedantic, opinionated and negative as the above sounds, I still wish you the best of luck

cheers

julius

A couple of points, Coastwatch is pretty thin in the air below 40S and Chris will only have a outward clearance if it is required under some law. As far as this thread goes, we haven't found a the law that requires such. It probably does exist but finding it hasn't been easy!

Secondly why does Chris have to give Coastwatch any answer! What law requires Chris to respond to an aircraft calling him or even to have a radio on board (apart from an EPIRB which is required once Chris is 2 miles out)

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

RC, I am really not picking on you .
Surely it isn't some what some walla in DEFAT thinks, surely what is required or not required is enshrined in some act of parliament.

For the record, Chris doesn't trust the bureaucrats in Canberra to know their head from their proverbial but Chris does trust what he reads in the legislation!

no problem. Chris is like most sailors pretty black and white.

Legislations as I've named several of the relevant ones are in this thread. Those same legislations give this responsible for policing them the ability to make exemptions and to exercise common sense. Now I don't have the time to go looking under each specific piece of legislation of which gives those tasked with responsibility for administering those acts the authority to make exemptions. But the fact is, the government gives those exemptions as shown in that PDF earlier from customs. But the authorities are there.

Now, I've heard the new Border 'Farce' Act 2015 complicates things significantly, but I'm not familiar with it for our purposes. I'll have a look at it later. My guess is it will only affect visitors who don't have the correct docs.

You asked earlier who defines the borders? I think it's in the Seas and Submerged Lands lands Act 1973.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Chris must have a great deal of faith in his vessel, to presume that he will not be FORCED to enter a foreign port or foreign waters, in need of repairs or assistance. The mythical "prudent mariner" knows it is a big world out there, and as the captain of the Faro so recently found out, "**** happens".


I wonder what percent of solo circumnavigators have either been forced into port, or chosen to enter port, somewhere along the way, when their initial plan was simply to stay out at sea?

Well Chris has set up the boat to be similar to Jon Sander's Parry Endeavour which completed three solo circumnavigations non-stop.

However the point you made is justified if you look a the number of boats that completed the first solo RTW race - it only a couple out of 10 or 12 IIRC.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

A couple of points, Coastwatch is pretty thin in the air below 40S and Chris will only have a outward clearance if it is required under some law. As far as this thread goes, we haven't found a the law that requires such. It probably does exist but finding it hasn't been easy!

Secondly why does Chris have to give Coastwatch any answer! What law requires Chris to respond to an aircraft calling him or even to have a radio on board (apart from an EPIRB which is required once Chris is 2 miles out)

I answered both these with legislation earlier in the thread. He most certainly does have to have 'outward' clearance. That's clear.

Also covered the legislation I thought that such officials can ask questions (virtually anything they want to know) and ask for any documentation they want and it's an offence not to comply.

But I suspect when later responding to accusations he breached those requirements to respond to questions, he can simply say he didn't hear, or his radio was broken? So, the requirements are there but probably easy to deny knowledge of the request.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I answered both these with legislation earlier in the thread. He most certainly does have to have 'outward' clearance. That's clear.

Also covered the legislation I thought that such officials can ask questions (virtually anything they want to know) and ask for any documentation they want and it's an offence not to comply.

But I suspect when later responding to accusations he breached those requirements to respond to questions, he can simply say he didn't hear, or his radio was broken? So, the requirements are there but probably easy to deny knowledge of the request.

Chris is not argumentative but is pedantic .
Chris will provide proof of identity if asked by a policeman but won't answer any other question unless Chris is arrested and has legal representation.
Unless Chris has missed some legal point, Chris won't have a radio on board.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Chris is not argumentative but is pedantic .
Chris will provide proof of identity if asked by a policeman but won't answer any other question unless Chris is arrested and has legal representation.
Unless Chris has missed some legal point, Chris won't have a radio on board.

Chris is gonna find himself on Naru Island

I did come across the legislation at some time that specifically states that he must answer all questions asked of him by the properly authorised officer, to whom would now days be a Border Farce Officer. Just his 'identity' is not going to cut it. And before they arrest him there is a good chance they will take him into custody. I'm not familiar with the new laws but given the media this year I suspect he won't see any legal representative for quite some time..

I've got to go start painting my boat now, so I'll find that other piece of legislation about answering questions later. The 'radio' requirement, I don't know the answer to from a Commonwealth angle. There are State requirements but I appreciate that's not what your asking.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

……..
Continuing in the hypothetical if the above applies then ever time we cruise North QLD from Brisbane we leave Australia without proper documentation or clearance.
"Shore" mainland or Island??
Chris(not the planing RTW)

While the following is not relevant to this thread, I note Qld gets a special mention in the Navigation Act 2012 in section 16

"(2) Despite subsection (1), a vessel’s voyage is not an overseas voyage if:
(a) the voyage commences from a port in Queensland and ends at the same port or another port in Queensland; and
(b) as an incidental part of its voyage, the vessel is present in waters that are outside the outer limits of the exclusive economic zone of Australia but within the Protected Zone; and
(c) the vessel is not otherwise present in waters that are outside the outer limits of the exclusive economic zone of Australia."