Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-10-2015, 14:44   #61
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I don't know a specific statute but most countries exercise control of people crossing thier border. In particular those coming in.

So when he comes back from international waters, he has to cross the border. I'm presuming Austrailia requires a passport to cross the border, hence he would not have the required documentation.
……..

Seems pretty clear cut to me even without being able to quote a statute.
Now that you mention it, it does seem clear. Crossing a border is a subtly different concept from travelling to a foreign place.

So while Chris is not travelling to a foreign port, Chris will be crossing the Aussie border (wherever that is) on return to his mooring.

Presumably that border is defined in some legislative Act. Anyone know which one?
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 14:54   #62
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Re home trade journeys made far outside the twelve mile limit I have made trips from Seward Alaska to SF. without custom/immigration requirements.

If I remember correctly.... is there not also an understanding of a country's "Area of Responsibility" ?

Often bounded by their continental shelf or some other zone 2-300 mm out....
Yes, in Oz it is called our Economic Zone or some such. Extends at least to the edge of the continental shelf and beyond in areas where the continental shelf is inconveniently too close

I recall working on an oil rig some 150+ miles off the coast, no passports required until one swing when they were expecting to move the rig. We had to take our passports with us and when the day came to move the rig, they flew some Customs wallas out form the mainland who cleared us out of Oz. The tow was only some 50 or so and when we returned back to Oz, we had to enter via a Customs controlled port. But we did get to buy duty free booze

So perhaps the "entry/exit line" is somewhere 200 miles out.
As posted above, it "must be" defined somewhere in the paperwork.
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 14:57   #63
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Fremantle to Bass Strait ports by great circle..... ships don't 'clear out' for that trip....
Next time I have that chart in front of me, I will have to have a look at the GC route and where the Economic Zone line is
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:03   #64
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Now that you mention it, it does seem clear. Crossing a border is a subtly different concept from travelling to a foreign place.

So while Chris is not travelling to a foreign port, Chris will be crossing the Aussie border (wherever that is) on return to his mooring.

Presumably that border is defined in some legislative Act. Anyone know which one?
Correct! Crossing a boarder of its self is not illegal. It depends on the intent as well as the 'permissions' you have to do it.

Australians have permission to cross the border for the purpose of transiting between one place in Australia to another, for simple sailing, fishing, and probably a heap of other purposes. No documentation is required. There is a general exemption to do so.

However, if an Australian crosses the border with intent to travel to another place, that person is acting illegally and has broken the law immediately he crosses the 12 mile limit.

All Australian persons, no matter what reason they travel beyond the 12 mile limit become liable for inspection from quarantine Officals.

Non Australians also have permission to cross the border. Again depending on their intent and permissions they have. Documentations are required.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:05   #65
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
……………..

You need an Australian passport anytime DEFAT indicates you require a passport. They don't require you to advise popping outside the 12 mile limit during simple passages. It's that simple.

Going around the world on a non stop however, I think you will find they do require it. Though that would be a discussion with them and they can make that decison.
RC, I am really not picking on you .
Surely it isn't some what some walla in DEFAT thinks, surely what is required or not required is enshrined in some act of parliament.

For the record, Chris doesn't trust the bureaucrats in Canberra to know their head from their proverbial but Chris does trust what he reads in the legislation!
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:11   #66
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Correct! Crossing a boarder of its self is not illegal. It depends on the intent as well as the 'permissions' you have to do it.

Australians have permission to cross the border for the purpose of transiting between one place in Australia to another, for simple sailing, fishing, and probably a heap of other purposes. No documentation is required. There is a general exemption to do so.

However, if an Australian crosses the border with intent to travel to another place, that person is acting illegally and has broken the law immediately he crosses the 12 mile limit.

All Australian persons, no matter what reason they travel beyond the 12 mile limit become liable for inspection from quarantine Officals.

Non Australians also have permission to cross the border. Again depending on their intent and permissions they have. Documentations are required.
Hmm… using the bolded bit above, it would seem Chris is in the clear Chris is travelling from one place in Australia to the same place in Australia for the purpose of simple sailing - a longish sail admittedly but no different than if Chris was hove to just off the coast form 9 months!

Chris is clear that the Quarantine Act applies
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:14   #67
Registered User
 
bill good's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: sold
Posts: 721
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Reg a boat as an Australian boat turns it into a piece of Australia. The same as a VH reg aircraft. No requirements when travelling to Lord Howe Island when I was operating aircraft for crew or pax. But when departing for international destinations, the boarder control is the date on the paper work for departure & not arrival where you leave that small part of Australia. This is why the court system is so healthy. ps I never got any duty free on the Lord Howe trips!! pps I now want the same duty free allowance as cruise liners!!
__________________
bill good is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:15   #68
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Not to forget, some countries require a foreigner to have a passport so they have some idea of who that person might really be.


But pretty much every country requires a passport to prove that you ARE in fact a returning citizen, not some foreigner trying to sneak back in. No passport? Sure, just sit in this little holding cell until we can find good proof that you really are returning home.
Chris can supply that proof.
Chris has a photo Aussie drivers licence - in Oz, that is proof of identity and Chris has a Birth Certificate has proves citizenship.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:28   #69
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by julius222 View Post
Hi

Not sea lawyer but sailed Northern Australia. Exited 3 times, entered 4 times. The extra is with a boat I bought in Thailand.

That is relevant because here the Coast WAtch planes are highly visible.

That will be the stumbling block for anyone leaving/entering without correct clearances.

The coast watch plane takes photos of ALL vessels
It calls most vessels and buzzes some

Your friend, Chris, cannot be a hundred miles from his home port, heading for New Zeland and give the Coast Watch a satisfactory answer.

My bet is that no one will chase him but sure as death and taxes, he will be put on a database and his return noted.

He will have a police reception, guaranteed.

There is ZERO chance that he can make such a trip without a passport being required by someone, somewhere.

But hey, you said it was a challenge so when he/she leaves give me a heads up. I would like to keep an eye on the news and see how far he got.

Emphatic, pedantic, opinionated and negative as the above sounds, I still wish you the best of luck

cheers

julius
A couple of points, Coastwatch is pretty thin in the air below 40S and Chris will only have a outward clearance if it is required under some law. As far as this thread goes, we haven't found a the law that requires such. It probably does exist but finding it hasn't been easy!

Secondly why does Chris have to give Coastwatch any answer! What law requires Chris to respond to an aircraft calling him or even to have a radio on board (apart from an EPIRB which is required once Chris is 2 miles out)
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:30   #70
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
RC, I am really not picking on you .
Surely it isn't some what some walla in DEFAT thinks, surely what is required or not required is enshrined in some act of parliament.

For the record, Chris doesn't trust the bureaucrats in Canberra to know their head from their proverbial but Chris does trust what he reads in the legislation!
no problem. Chris is like most sailors pretty black and white.

Legislations as I've named several of the relevant ones are in this thread. Those same legislations give this responsible for policing them the ability to make exemptions and to exercise common sense. Now I don't have the time to go looking under each specific piece of legislation of which gives those tasked with responsibility for administering those acts the authority to make exemptions. But the fact is, the government gives those exemptions as shown in that PDF earlier from customs. But the authorities are there.

Now, I've heard the new Border 'Farce' Act 2015 complicates things significantly, but I'm not familiar with it for our purposes. I'll have a look at it later. My guess is it will only affect visitors who don't have the correct docs.

You asked earlier who defines the borders? I think it's in the Seas and Submerged Lands lands Act 1973.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:35   #71
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Chris must have a great deal of faith in his vessel, to presume that he will not be FORCED to enter a foreign port or foreign waters, in need of repairs or assistance. The mythical "prudent mariner" knows it is a big world out there, and as the captain of the Faro so recently found out, "**** happens".


I wonder what percent of solo circumnavigators have either been forced into port, or chosen to enter port, somewhere along the way, when their initial plan was simply to stay out at sea?
Well Chris has set up the boat to be similar to Jon Sander's Parry Endeavour which completed three solo circumnavigations non-stop.

However the point you made is justified if you look a the number of boats that completed the first solo RTW race - it only a couple out of 10 or 12 IIRC.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:39   #72
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
A couple of points, Coastwatch is pretty thin in the air below 40S and Chris will only have a outward clearance if it is required under some law. As far as this thread goes, we haven't found a the law that requires such. It probably does exist but finding it hasn't been easy!

Secondly why does Chris have to give Coastwatch any answer! What law requires Chris to respond to an aircraft calling him or even to have a radio on board (apart from an EPIRB which is required once Chris is 2 miles out)
I answered both these with legislation earlier in the thread. He most certainly does have to have 'outward' clearance. That's clear.

Also covered the legislation I thought that such officials can ask questions (virtually anything they want to know) and ask for any documentation they want and it's an offence not to comply.

But I suspect when later responding to accusations he breached those requirements to respond to questions, he can simply say he didn't hear, or his radio was broken? So, the requirements are there but probably easy to deny knowledge of the request.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 15:49   #73
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I answered both these with legislation earlier in the thread. He most certainly does have to have 'outward' clearance. That's clear.

Also covered the legislation I thought that such officials can ask questions (virtually anything they want to know) and ask for any documentation they want and it's an offence not to comply.

But I suspect when later responding to accusations he breached those requirements to respond to questions, he can simply say he didn't hear, or his radio was broken? So, the requirements are there but probably easy to deny knowledge of the request.
Chris is not argumentative but is pedantic .
Chris will provide proof of identity if asked by a policeman but won't answer any other question unless Chris is arrested and has legal representation.
Unless Chris has missed some legal point, Chris won't have a radio on board.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 16:05   #74
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Chris is not argumentative but is pedantic .
Chris will provide proof of identity if asked by a policeman but won't answer any other question unless Chris is arrested and has legal representation.
Unless Chris has missed some legal point, Chris won't have a radio on board.
Chris is gonna find himself on Naru Island

I did come across the legislation at some time that specifically states that he must answer all questions asked of him by the properly authorised officer, to whom would now days be a Border Farce Officer. Just his 'identity' is not going to cut it. And before they arrest him there is a good chance they will take him into custody. I'm not familiar with the new laws but given the media this year I suspect he won't see any legal representative for quite some time..

I've got to go start painting my boat now, so I'll find that other piece of legislation about answering questions later. The 'radio' requirement, I don't know the answer to from a Commonwealth angle. There are State requirements but I appreciate that's not what your asking.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 16:09   #75
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Aussie Legal Hurdles (RTW) ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
……..
Continuing in the hypothetical if the above applies then ever time we cruise North QLD from Brisbane we leave Australia without proper documentation or clearance.
"Shore" mainland or Island??
Chris(not the planing RTW)
While the following is not relevant to this thread, I note Qld gets a special mention in the Navigation Act 2012 in section 16

"(2) Despite subsection (1), a vessel’s voyage is not an overseas voyage if:
(a) the voyage commences from a port in Queensland and ends at the same port or another port in Queensland; and
(b) as an incidental part of its voyage, the vessel is present in waters that are outside the outer limits of the exclusive economic zone of Australia but within the Protected Zone; and
(c) the vessel is not otherwise present in waters that are outside the outer limits of the exclusive economic zone of Australia."
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
legal

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aussie Aussie Aussie! southace Pacific & South China Sea 31 15-03-2013 05:26
Tobias Fahey RTW Solo non stop speed record (for an aussie) surfingminniwinni Cruising News & Events 0 20-11-2012 23:03
New Hurdles for Clearing In to Australia Bob Norson The Library 12 19-07-2011 14:56
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi, Oi, Oi Reid Meets & Greets 38 06-05-2011 02:44



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.