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Old 11-02-2013, 19:39   #61
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Re: Abandoning Ship

It's kinda funny. My boat came with tiller steering. Then I added the hydraulic steering with pedestal. Now I use both. The tiller is when I use the wind vane or a tiller pilot, and then the wheel for all other uses. Just the turn of a valve to cut in/out the hydraulics.
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Old 13-02-2013, 04:19   #62
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Re: Abandoning Ship

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A jury rig rudder made from spars, doors etc may take a week too.
Put down the rum....and step away from the bottle...
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Old 13-02-2013, 05:07   #63
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Re: Abandoning Ship

my experience, is that jury rigged rudders from spars ( assuming you dont need these!) and doors etc are almost impossible to use, dont work well at all and break really quickly. Its is almost dead calm it just about works , otherwise its virtually a waste of time.

Dave
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Old 13-02-2013, 05:15   #64
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Re: Abandoning Ship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miniyot View Post
Put down the rum....and step away from the bottle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
my experience, is that jury rigged rudders from spars ( assuming you dont need these!) and doors etc are almost impossible to use, dont work well at all and break really quickly. Its is almost dead calm it just about works , otherwise its virtually a waste of time.

Dave
Thats why they will take a week to get working, rum bottle or not. (and I dont drink spirits).

But on a passage its better to use a week to try than to give up your boat and fail in your cruising life.


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Old 13-02-2013, 08:03   #65
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Re: Abandoning Ship

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
my experience, is that jury rigged rudders from spars ( assuming you dont need these!) and doors etc are almost impossible to use, dont work well at all and break really quickly. Its is almost dead calm it just about works , otherwise its virtually a waste of time.

Dave
And that is why offshore race boats are required to carry an emergency rudder.

Offshore cruisers could benefit from looking at the ISAF requirements when they decide what equipment and modifications would be of benefit to them.
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Old 13-02-2013, 08:46   #66
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Re: Abandoning Ship

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Yes, it is.

I noticed that sometimes saying something aloud creates a ripple.

Not that I will make my opinions a religion.

b.
I think their is some merit in your earlier mention that with or without radios / emails / EPIRBS / liferafts that the attempted remedy and therefore the situation may have turned out differently. Not saying better!, just different.

Certainly when options are on the table it is prudent not to ignore them - with communications to the shore not only would they have got "good" advice and reassurance that not alone - would also have got folks who could never sensibly say don't call to be rescued (nor even don't wait) as folks on shore are never in a position to judge the situation on the boat, nor (like those on the boat) will they ever be able to see into the future.......(maybe have a good guess, but not to 100% know enough to make a tough judgement call on someone else's behalf).......and only a short step from their to pressing the big red button, which otherwise may not have been pressed (rightly or wrongly!).

......and at the risk of getting my arse kicked by the oldies here!, the age of the couple onboard would clearly have affected the decisions made (IMO quite rightly so) and those decisions would have to bear in mind less stamina and the effects of that on decision making both now and later (of course everyone has limits, no matter how young, able, or fit they start off at).......and also no doubt the skipper (I am presuming the fella! - sexist pig is me!) was thinking about what situation his wife would be in if he got injured / incapacitated or went glug and / or also bearing in mind the effect on the family ashore if something later happened to Mum.

As it was the folks got home alive, so can't say it was totally a bad decision - just one option from a choice amongst the less than ideal......I won't say they were "lucky" to survive getting hauled up the side of a cargo ship - but that not without a fair degree of risk, especially at their age .


I think we would all like to think we could have done better (jury rigged steering and rudders included!) - but whether that would be the case is another thing entirely........they got home alive and boat was insured. Not the greatest result - but not the worst.

Sometimes in life the choices are all sh#tty.
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Old 13-02-2013, 09:02   #67
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Re: Abandoning Ship

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
my experience, is that jury rigged rudders from spars ( assuming you dont need these!) and doors etc are almost impossible to use, dont work well at all and break really quickly. Its is almost dead calm it just about works , otherwise its virtually a waste of time.

Dave
This will depend on your boat's design and size.

We are in a small double-ender that will actually steer with a long oar. A spinnaker pole armed with a bunk box cover will do too.

So I say some boats are more emergency steering controllable than others.

b.
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Old 13-02-2013, 09:03   #68
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Re: Abandoning Ship

As I am working on a presentation about AMVER I came across this decision making flowchart in their ship reporting manual. It has quite a bit of merit.

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Old 14-02-2013, 07:45   #69
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Re: Abandoning Ship

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Ever done that , have ya !!!

Dave

I have and it works... As delmarry says... forward and outboard as possible... You are not going to round a mark, navigate a narrow inlet, nor turn into your slip.... BUT... You are going to be able to make and keep a heading....
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Old 14-02-2013, 18:07   #70
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I have and it works... As delmarry says... forward and outboard as possible... You are not going to round a mark, navigate a narrow inlet, nor turn into your slip.... BUT... You are going to be able to make and keep a heading....
I certainly found that a series drogue could not steer the yacht adequately in any sort of weather. ( the type of weather where this stuff might happen) in particular it could stop the boat rounding up or nearly broaching going down wave. With the ruddder they are quite successful. Without the rudder they don't have enough leverage to correct the vessel

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Old 14-02-2013, 18:57   #71
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Re: Abandoning Ship

Last year on the return from Bermuda a good number of boats (myself included) ran into some very foul weather. All of the boats had just participated in the Newport Bermuda race and had been inspected extensively by the Organizing Committee. As has been pointed out, ISAF regs for an offshore race like this require an alternative means of steering should the rudder be swept away.

Unfortunately for the owner and crew of the Avenir, they assumed that if they lost the rudder they would be able to fashion a steering system using the spinnaker pole and a bucket (drogue).

There are several youtube postings captured by folks on the Norwegian Dawn ().

The owner of the C&C 41 decided to send out a MayDay and abandon ship after the loss of the rudder resulted in the crew of 6 getting so seasick he was afraid they all be lost in the storm because they could no longer attend to the boat. (news recap here)

Swells ran as high as 17' and sustained winds at over 45knots (gusts peaking at just over 58knots). They took a beating for over 14 hours before making the call.

In the same storm, just 4 miles from where they were finally picked up, I was sailing back as well. In the same storm I took such a beating that the cast aluminum steering quadrant on my boat fractured. I was in better shape though because I had decided that if something happened that resulted in the loss of steering it was probably going to happen in really crappy conditions and screwing around lashing various pieces together was a loosing proposition.

My back up was a Hydrovane self-steering wind vane. I managed to stabilize the steering system so that the boat was balanced, had 3 reefs in and barely any jib out (my storm jib was too much canvas) and sailed reasonably comfortably through the storm and finally making it to Newport a few days later.

My point is simply if you are going to cut corners on things, your emergency gear is not the place to do it. If you want to go out on the ocean, be prepared. Have a backup and another backup. Plan and practice. When racing we are obligated to run man overboard drills. Most people pick a nice weekend, gather the crew and go for a sail. Every once in awhile they yell man overboard and toss a fender to be retrieved.

The guys who take their safety seriously go out on the snotty days and get this down pat. Who has ever set a storm trysail? In anything over 30knots? Or rigged a storm jib, set a storm anchor or drogue? I can tell you from first hand experience that even the most carefully planned systems can become hours of hours of torture to rig when the weather turns.

Best thing Boy Scouts did for me was to teach me - Be Prepared.

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Old 14-02-2013, 18:58   #72
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Re: Abandoning Ship

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I certainly found that a series drogue could not steer the yacht adequately in any sort of weather. ( the type of weather where this stuff might happen) in particular it could stop the boat rounding up or nearly broaching going down wave. With the ruddder they are quite successful. Without the rudder they don't have enough leverage to correct the vessel

Dave
I think that would depend on the hull. For a full keel it would be more difficult. But with a fin keel it would turn the boat quite well, especially an IOR. The steering can be lost in any weather but if the weather were that bad I'd just deploy a sea anchor and wait for better conditions. If you can't steer, you can't steer.
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Old 14-02-2013, 19:16   #73
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I think that would depend on the hull. For a full keel it would be more difficult. But with a fin keel it would turn the boat quite well, especially an IOR. The steering can be lost in any weather but if the weather were that bad I'd just deploy a sea anchor and wait for better conditions. If you can't steer, you can't steer.
I'd say the full keel has a better chance of working with a drogue. a fin needs its rudder

As to sea anchors I don't think they have any place on a small modern yacht.


I agree with all the comments that you need a good emergency rudder , the silly emergency tiller you get these days is a joke.

Again I've crossed oceans with none of this, but I do know that drogues can't cope without a rudder in any modern fin keeler


Dave
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Old 14-02-2013, 19:28   #74
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Re: Abandoning Ship

Jackdale... I applaude you for including location and use of an emergency tiller in your orientation for new sailors. Having lost steering on a delivery a number of years ago and finding the emergency tiller brackets so totally rusted in place, I had to rerun a piece of clothesline for a replacement steering cable. I have always thought that given the chance again that is one piece of equipment I would always check on before leaving port. Cheers, Phil
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Old 14-02-2013, 19:44   #75
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Re: Abandoning Ship

Watching that video made me think that our long standing rule of not second guessing another mans decision at sea is not really useful. To have gone 14 hours with seasick crew and not raised the trysail to calm the whole situation down shows a lack of seamanship that should not happen in a well trained racing crew. They had the stamina to tie off the jib and furl the main in a very neat fashion, but not the sense to hoist the required trysail to steady the boat. They all seemed healthy enough to jump off into the rescue dinghy, but in such danger that they could not hoist some kind of steadying sail to smooth things out. I understand that injury or medical problems justify almost anything , but abandoning a non sinking boat because you are sea sick just makes the next guys insurance premium go up. Maybe I dont know all of the circumstances , but it seems like incompetency._____Grant.
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