2015 Bahamas gun check-in update

[napadiver]

Thanks to Ian and Jon for their candid and comprehensive responses.

This is obviously a touchy subject, and I, from a law enforcement background, am weighing carefully my options to proceed forward with our cruising plans.

Hard to give up the guns; with the complexities and quagmires of some nations' customs procedures it is certainly easier to travel without;
but equally hard to compromise on safety...I refuse to acquiesce to criminals.
No, it is not easier to simply give them what they want...you're dealing with people whose motives, behavior and actions cannot be predicted and the negative possibilities are too much to accept.

An affirmative (proactive) defense is preferable. The complexities of this issue in an international cruising environment are difficult.

[smj]

Originally Posted by napadiver

Thanks to Ian and Jon for their candid and comprehensive responses.

This is obviously a touchy subject, and I, from a law enforcement background, am weighing carefully my options to proceed forward with our cruising plans.

Hard to give up the guns; with the complexities and quagmires of some nations' customs procedures it is certainly easier to travel without;
but equally hard to compromise on safety...I refuse to acquiesce to criminals.
No, it is not easier to simply give them what they want...you're dealing with people whose motives, behavior and actions cannot be predicted and the negative possibilities are too much to accept.

An affirmative (proactive) defense is preferable. The complexities of this issue in an international cruising environment are difficult.

And therefore you may travel to countries that understand and legally accept your views on firearms. The question is, will you as a former peace officer try to defy the laws of other countries and illegally bring your weapon into their country knowing their laws?

[crazyoldboatguy]

Originally Posted by smj

And therefore you may travel to countries that understand and legally accept your views on firearms. The question is, will you as a former peace officer try to defy the laws of other countries and illegally bring your weapon into their country knowing their laws?

The question is, what in his comments led you to think he was even contemplating that course of action? I don't read that at all - he identified himself as a law enforcement officer. smh

[iancoombe]

Originally Posted by napadiver

Thanks to Ian and Jon for their candid and comprehensive responses.

This is obviously a touchy subject, and I, from a law enforcement background, am weighing carefully my options to proceed forward with our cruising plans.

Hard to give up the guns; with the complexities and quagmires of some nations' customs procedures it is certainly easier to travel without;
but equally hard to compromise on safety...I refuse to acquiesce to criminals.
No, it is not easier to simply give them what they want...you're dealing with people whose motives, behavior and actions cannot be predicted and the negative possibilities are too much to accept.

An affirmative (proactive) defense is preferable. The complexities of this issue in an international cruising environment are difficult.

Hi nap
Don't get me wrong I am not anti firearms I would have two onboard if it wasn't for the extra hassle, one of the problems I would have is entering a country where I had to surrender the firearms and the deciding that I want to clear out of a different port. Ok it maybe easier in a country where we had a common language but it's going to be a process. I also understand the rational for hidden weapons it circumvents all those problems. We are currently cruising in the area where last year had the most pirate reports in the world yet I don't know of an incident involving cruisers for a few years, so which is the most likely held hostage by pirates or held prisoner by the law. I simply made a judgement call. I suppose if really got into the whole issue of what kills the most cruisers I probably would spend the weapons money on a defibrillator. Anyway I seem to have joined others hijacking this post so once again I thank the OP and look forward to seeing his reports
Cheers

[napadiver]

Originally Posted by smj

And therefore you may travel to countries that understand and legally accept your views on firearms. The question is, will you as a former peace officer try to defy the laws of other countries and illegally bring your weapon into their country knowing their laws?

Of course not. That would be hypocritical. I wear a white hat.

I may get to a point where I simply decide to either have firearms onboard, declare them to local customs and not travel to locations where they are not allowed or are too much of a hassle,
or,
not carry them at all and rely on my ninja skills and powers of persuasion.

[smj]

Originally Posted by napadiver

Of course not. That would be hypocritical. I wear a white hat.

I may get to a point where I simply decide to either have firearms onboard, declare them to local customs and not travel to locations where they are not allowed or are too much of a hassle,
or,
not carry them at all and rely on my ninja skills and powers of persuasion.

What you said makes sense. Thanks

[natraps116]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=143955

Sent from my D6616 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[MYTraveler]

Originally Posted by timbenner

I've experienced an armed robbery, at the hands of a career criminal, when I was unarmed. Fortunately I made it through that experience. Now I understand first hand the need to be armed,

I have never been in that situation and in my state (CA) and county, getting a ccw permit is not a real possibility. I am a life member of the NRA, and always enjoy the "armed citizen" column in their monthly magazine that gives a synopsis of published reports of guns being used for self-defense. And in many of those cases, it seems clear that without that self-defense opportunity, the citizen would likely have been seriously injured or killed.

My question is whether in your particular experience as the victim of an armed robbery, if you had been armed, would you have had the opportunity to safely and effectively use your weapon? If the assailant already has his gun out, it doesn't seem like you could safely pull yours and tell him to drop his. Huge probability that shots would be fired from both guns, with the consequent risk that you or another innocent person would be hit.

[SniperSailor]

Originally Posted by MYTraveler

I have never been in that situation and in my state (CA) and county, getting a ccw permit is not a real possibility. I am a life member of the NRA, and always enjoy the "armed citizen" column in their monthly magazine that gives a synopsis of published reports of guns being used for self-defense. And in many of those cases, it seems clear that without that self-defense opportunity, the citizen would likely have been seriously injured or killed.

My question is whether in your particular experience as the victim of an armed robbery, if you had been armed, would you have had the opportunity to safely and effectively use your weapon? If the assailant already has his gun out, it doesn't seem like you could safely pull yours and tell him to drop his. Huge probability that shots would be fired from both guns, with the consequent risk that you or another innocent person would be hit.

Very true, but the alternative is???

[MYTraveler]

Originally Posted by SniperSailor

Very true, but the alternative is???

There is no good solution, and in general, I agree it is better to be armed. My question was more whether it would have made sense, under the particular circumstances of that armed robbery, to have pulled the gun. The poster seemed to say he wished he had been armed and I am wondering if it would really have helped. I can see scenarios in which it would have and others in which it would not, and even conceivably in which it would have hurt. I think if I were being robbed, I would not have pulled my gun (if I had one) without being about 95% confident that I would be the victor. Otherwise, I would take my chances with the armed robber shooting me for no good reason (which I estimate at 5%). But, if the circumstances caused me to believe my chances of being shot for no good reason were higher than 5%, then I would pull my gun and hope for the best.

[RickD]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Claymores will damage your rigging, and what if you're on deck during a lightening strike?

OP I'm interested in how much of an actual hassle you run in to, so please use the report feature to keep the thread on track and open, and the haters at bay.

Claymores specifically say "Front toward enemy". Don't aim them at the rigging, lol.

[timbenner]

Originally Posted by napadiver

A tangent from Clyde's previous post and a serious question to those who have extensive international cruising experience:

How many times have YOU had YOUR boat actually searched for firearms?
What were the circumstances and how extensive was the search?
What was the declared motive of the searching authority?

I completely understand the sovereignty and importance of individual national laws. Simply want to know the reality of the situation.

I met a container ship captain that lived on his sailboat in a slip next to me. I spent a lot of time discussing this issue with him, because of his years of international commercial and private boating experience. Here's what he told me:

1) Most international commercial vessels carry guns. He did not advocate declaring them in most instances. In the Bahamas, there is no reason not to declare your guns, because they allow them.

2) He was very decisive that you never stash guns in your stateroom - the first place they will look. If you're not going to declare (I personally would in most cases) then create a gun stash somewhere close to the helm, behind a panel held in place by a lot of screws. They are inherently lazy and don't want to do a lot of work taking panels off that have a lot of screws. What ever you do, don't hand them an electric screw gun.

3) If a search is threatened or implied, especially in the third world, what the officials are really saying is that they want an international pass from you or more specifically a $100 bill. Especially in the Carribean, Central and South America. If there are several inspectors on board, you might need $100 for each of them to win their unanimous support.

I can attest to my friends advise in Central America, it's all about go-away money. Most Officials instantly love you when you hand them your international pass ($100 bill), then want to do something good for you, as their new friend and would prefer not to know you're armed so they don't have to deal with it, because you're now their new friend.

[smj]

Originally Posted by timbenner

I met a container ship captain that lived on his sailboat in a slip next to me. I spent a lot of time discussing this issue with him, because of his years of international commercial and private boating experience. Here's what he told me:



1) Most international commercial vessels carry guns. He did not advocate declaring them in most instances. In the Bahamas, there is no reason not to declare your guns, because they allow them.



2) He was very decisive that you never stash guns in your stateroom - the first place they will look. If you're not going to declare (I personally would in most cases) then create a gun stash somewhere close to the helm, behind a panel held in place by a lot of screws. They are inherently lazy and don't want to do a lot of work taking panels off that have a lot of screws. What ever you do, don't hand them an electric screw gun.



3) If a search is threatened or implied, especially in the third world, what the officials are really saying is that they want an international pass from you or more specifically a $100 bill. Especially in the Carribean, Central and South America. If there are several inspectors on board, you might need $100 for each of them to win their unanimous support.



I can attest to my friends advise in Central America, it's all about go-away money. Most Officials instantly love you when you hand them your international pass ($100 bill), then want to do something good for you, as their new friend and would prefer not to know you're armed so they don't have to deal with it, because you're now their new friend.

So you have to be robbed by officials so you can protect yourself from being robbed by criminals. That would end up being a mighty expensive gun if you did the entire Caribbean loop!

[SniperSailor]

Originally Posted by MYTraveler

There is no good solution, and in general, I agree it is better to be armed. My question was more whether it would have made sense, under the particular circumstances of that armed robbery, to have pulled the gun. The poster seemed to say he wished he had been armed and I am wondering if it would really have helped. I can see scenarios in which it would have and others in which it would not, and even conceivably in which it would have hurt. I think if I were being robbed, I would not have pulled my gun (if I had one) without being about 95% confident that I would be the victor. Otherwise, I would take my chances with the armed robber shooting me for no good reason (which I estimate at 5%). But, if the circumstances caused me to believe my chances of being shot for no good reason were higher than 5%, then I would pull my gun and hope for the best.

Well said.

A lot of one's confidence in the ability to come out on top, like in any endeavor, is directly related to your level of training and practice. I would never encourage anyone to buy a firearm and just stash it for a rainy day...thats the best way to get killed. Accepting responsibility for your own life and the lives of others is a serious commitment and not one to be taken lightly.

[Dulcesuenos]

So if a gun is hidden away behind a screwed down lid or hard to find location how effective is it?
I love those doomsday prepper shows, bunch of people who think they have a bunch of weapons and practice yelling commands they could survive an assault. When they do practice scenarios against trained military they got their asses handed to em.
You will amplify a situation by pulling a gun, be ready for it...

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app