2015 Bahamas gun check-in update

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by capngeo

This thread was started as an informational thread FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN CARRYING FIREARMS ABOARD THEIR VESSEL. It is not a forum to discuss your political beliefs regarding firearms.

That ship sailed long ago. Non it is just down to it's entertainment value to those that don't really care one way or the other

[Hud3]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

Wow, this thread is becoming tiresome. If you care not for firearms, please avoid them and move on to a different thread. This is an intersting thread to me and some others, including the OP...

That's an ironic comment. You do realize that you're the one who's running this thread off the rails the most, don't you?

I'm one who chooses not to carry firearms on board, but I'm still interested in what the OP experiences as he cruises the islands. If you and a few others could give the derogatory, argumentative posturing a rest, most of the rest of us would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[colemj]

The main reason we don't carry a gun is that if the autopilot went out, I'd shoot myself...

Mark

[Exile]

Originally Posted by colemj

The main reason we don't carry a gun is that if the autopilot went out, I'd shoot myself...

Mark

OK, that settles it for me. I was on the fence 'til now, but your comment reminded me of this overwhelming concern for my own personal safety.

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by Hud3

That's an ironic comment. You do realize that you're the one who's running this thread off the rails the most, don't you?

I'm one who chooses not to carry firearms on board, but I'm still interested in what the OP experiences as he cruises the islands. If you and a few others could give the derogatory, argumentative posturing a rest, most of the rest of us would appreciate it.

Thanks.

No. I do not realize whatever you are proposing. If you do not like firearms, then please remove yourself from the discussion. Some people are very interested in firearms, myself included.

[four winds]

Myself and possibly others would like for this thread to be about the firearms checkin process ONLY. Especially the Caribbean countries is my interest.

The extraneous discussion of "to have or have not" and certainly the debate over actual use and tactics is anti thema to the thread's continuance. PLEASE STOP!

Maybe start your own thread about high seas firearms defense tactics. I would find that highly entertaining.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by timbenner

It's kind of like an EPIRB. Do you carry one because of fear or because you choose to be ready for a life threatening situation.

I've often heard that analogy to other 'safety gear' made, but in my opinion there's a considerable degree of false equivalence to such an analogy...

Would you dare to make an ocean passage today without an EPIRB, for instance? Or, would you be too "afraid" - as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread - to sail offshore without one? They are a fairly recent development of technology, after all, people have been crossing oceans for generations on small yachts before they existed. Many people today choose to sail offshore without gear some have come to consider "mandatory", such as liferafts, or EPIRBS, and often with very sound reasoning behind their choices... Furthermore, would you sail to, say, Bermuda, if the possession of something like an EPIRB was prohibited, or could prove highly problematic or inconvenient upon your arrival there?

The notion of carrying something like a firearm, or EPIRB, as being an example of "Preparedness" seems to miss the larger point, to me... For instance, in recent months we've seen 3 highly publicized examples of where EPIRBS or satphones 'Saved Lives' after crews decided to abandon boats off the East coast... However, I would suggest that in each case, the better way to have 'saved lives' (and not to mention the boats, as well) would have been not to have set sail in the North Atlantic in January in highly questionable weather to begin with :-)

The finest definition of Seamanship I've ever heard, is something along the lines of "the exercise of Superior Judgment in order to avoid the necessity of exercising Superior Skills..." With all the resources and anecdotal evidence available at one's fingertips today, it has never been easier to define and evaluate the levels of risk in cruising in various regions... I cruise solely for pleasure, and a bit of adventure, but if I determine a certain place might be likely to present a certain level of danger, I'll simply choose to avoid it, instead... But, perhaps that's just me... :-)

Please understand, I'm not coming at this from some sort of "Anti-Gun" perspective, and it never ceases to amaze how difficult it is for many to appreciate any shades of grey in any discussion of this topic... Anyone wants to carry firearms aboard, that's fine by me... I'm just always struck by two things that seem to characterize these debates... First, how uniquely American the 'obsession' with this subject seems to be... Once one really gets Out There, and amidst a more international community of cruisers, it's striking how much less of a concern it is to people of other nationalities... A broad generalization, to be sure, but they certainly don't TALK about it as endlessly, as we Yanks tend to do...

Second, how much these debates are often informed by opinions of people who have yet to actually go much of anyplace outside of the US, or the gun-friendly confines of the Bahamas...(Or, as we have seen in this thread, by some who do not even presently own a boat :-)) I think what is often betrayed by some, is a lack of appreciation of how inconvenient or problematic playing by the rules while checking in and out of certain countries with something like a semi-automatic firearm can prove to be, coupled with how unlikely the probability that one may actually need to use such a weapon during the course of a typical circumnavigation... In that regard, firearms might tend to fit into the category of Safety Gear that you first raised, in that they can prove to be somewhat of a limiting factor, in the minds of some who might feel they can never have quite enough gear to make them safe... "No, an EPIRB and SSB doesn't quite cut it for taking my family offshore, we need a satphone, as well.." translates into "Nah, a shotgun alone might not be enough, we'll need a few Glocks, and a Bushmaster, too... because, well, you never know..." Ultimately, that sort of mindset can often result in the sort of cruising that never dares to venture beyond the aptly-named "Chicken Harbor", on Great Exuma... :-)

However, in the meantime, I'll freely admit to taking whatever collateral benefit I can from the reputation regarding a 'fondness' for firearms that precedes a cruiser flying the Stars and Stripes... I've always appreciated proper flag etiquette, and one of the little onboard routines I've always enjoyed is the striking of the ship's colors at sunset... I'll always do so in my home country, or when cruising in a region like Atlantic Canada... But, in a riskier place like, say, Honduras or Guatemala, I'll leave my 36" American ensign draped from my stern all night long...

:-)

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

No. I do not realize whatever you are proposing. If you do not like firearms, then please remove yourself from the discussion. Some people are very interested in firearms, myself included.

I fail to see how whether one "likes firearms", or not, has much to do with whether one should be 'permitted' to contribute to this discussion, or not...

I choose not to carry a gun aboard my own boat... However, I do have a bit of experience clearing in and out of other countries with guns aboard boats I was delivering. I related one such account from Puerto Plata, DR, earlier in this thread, for instance... That single experience from years ago, after all, was enough of a PITA to substantially inform my own personal choice to cruise without guns aboard my own boat...

Is that information not relevant, simply because I do not profess to "like firearms"?

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by colemj

The main reason we don't carry a gun is that if the autopilot went out, I'd shoot myself...

Mark

LMAO! Best reason given yet...

Hell, why do you think I have a windvane, as well?

As others have suggested, Be Prepared...

:-)

[goboatingnow]

I'm an avid target shooter and I shoot in a wimpy socialist European country. Yet I have semi autos , pistols and various shotguns and high calibre rifles.

I have also delivered a few boats that had firearms on board around Europe. I have personal experience of the issues that caused ( or didn't cause )

I find it sad when those that argue against guns on board are characterised as sissies or not free or something. I mean this is from a country where I can't buy cinnarzine , one of the best drugs against sea sickness , I find this descent into this right to bear arms utter nonsense and completely irrelevant to the topic.

Could we debate this topic without , quite frankly , some idiot , mentioning how he believed the US somehow " saved " the rest of us. I could argue the US was saved by the French navy and all you were doing was repaying the favour ( lol )

Gun rights or the US perspective on it is an national issue. There are many national perspectives in that debate

Personally ( sorry edit : used to think )I would carry some basic armed deterrent of I found the paperwork reasonable . I have carried an Auto shotgun which I feel is an excellent all rounder. Rifles and especially handguns can have very problematic paperwork issues.

I don't intend to ever again cruise with firearms. Primarily because I do not want the issues associated with harming someone in a foreign territory. That scares me more then a vague fear of encountering armed bandits of one type or another.

One thing I would countenance , is its very difficult to predict the reaction where you declare firearms. Firstly be aware that the countries licensing laws may NOT apply as you are not actually proposing to import such firearms.

Secondly the reaction of port officials /police can vary from day to day and port to port and often depends on who you meet and their familiarity with the rules and also their personal view of civilians carrying firearms. You can find, as I did , quite a lot of variability.

For example , Germany has very reasonable firearms laws for its citizens. But has a very strict approach to yachts with " military" style guns sailing in its waters, as one US sailor discovered as his m16 was confiscated at sea.

Hence Id question the usefullness of soliciting experiences .

I've nothing against a cruiser that decides to carry a gun. Just don't shove you US point of view down our throats.

Personally I would hate to see the cruising community start to carry arms. The only saving grace is that the US is not a sailing country compared to many others and cruises that cover any distance therefore are as rare as hens teeth.

I wish you well in your endeavours to cruise around the world, armed or not. Missing beautiful places because of their firearms laws seems utterly daft to me.

One final point. Most " civilised" countries allow their citizens access to a range of firearms, many that are exceptionally lethal. In my case it takes a week to get the license . ( and I have licensed silencers for some of my rifles etc ) Its a tribute to those countries sailors that very very few of them feel the need to bring then on board. Long may that continue.

Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[autumnbreeze27]

Having a gun onboard is self-reliance. You can protect yourself with it, you can use it as a sound signal, you can hunt with it to provide food.

Having an epirb on board is not self-reliance. There's people that need to be kept on a leash, so they feel protected. They need to have that out, so if the going gets tough, they can call in the men with helicopters, who will pick them up, and carry them to safety, and then call the insurance man, who will give them a check to cover their losses.

You hear about criminals using guns or other weapons against cruisers. You hear about police using guns or other weapons on both criminals and regular people (police killing people in the US is at an all time high, and it's under-reported because it is a voluntary report system!). You don't hear about the crazy gun-toting american cruisers who are wrecking havoc in various countries, or shooting each other in the mooring field, so why all the hate? Why all the anti-gun rhetoric? Can't somebody share their experience on here without YOU JUDGING THEM?

I, for one, would be interested in reading what the OP's experiences are, but it's not worth my time to wade through all the rhetoric, but hey, if it helps you sleep at night, I obviously can't stop you, just like you can't stop the criminals from using guns against innocents, or good people using guns to protect themselves and others.

Now come under my lee and heave to, or I will fire into you.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Having a gun onboard is self-reliance. You can protect yourself with it, you can use it as a sound signal, you can hunt with it to provide food.

opinion and the absence of facts, the discharge of a gun is not a recognised sound or distress signal.

Having an epirb on board is not self-reliance. There's people that need to be kept on a leash, so they feel protected. They need to have that out, so if the going gets tough, they can call in the men with helicopters, who will pick them up, and carry them to safety, and then call the insurance man, who will give them a check to cover their losses

.

A gun and an EPIRB are the same basic thing, insurance , only a tiny tiny number of people take a gun on board to hunt for food. I would humbly suggest as its the sea, that you take a fishing line instead.

You hear about criminals using guns or other weapons against cruisers. You hear about police using guns or other weapons on both criminals and regular people (police killing people in the US is at an all time high, and it's under-reported because it is a voluntary report system!).

SO,

You don't hear about the crazy gun-toting american cruisers who are wrecking havoc in various countries, or shooting each other in the mooring field, so why all the hate? Why all the anti-gun rhetoric? Can't somebody share their experience on here without YOU JUDGING THEM?

I dont see hate, I see people reacting to (a) You're not free if you cant shoot people , (b) i need to be macho so i'll carry a weapon or (c) make vague posturing comments

I, for one, would be interested in reading what the OP's experiences are, but it's not worth my time to wade through all the rhetoric, but hey, if it helps you sleep at night, I obviously can't stop you, just like you can't stop the criminals from using guns against innocents, or good people using guns to protect themselves and others.

lots of laws stop good people from using guns BY THE WAY, many societies think that the danger of gun proliferation is worse then the risk that SOME criminals may have them. whatever you think, that national perspective is valid

Now come under my lee and heave to, or I will fire into you.

why finish with a macho comment, thats confirms the stereotype

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Having a gun onboard is self-reliance. You can protect yourself with it, you can use it as a sound signal, you can hunt with it to provide food.

Or, as one poster has indicated, if you have a rifle fitted with a Weaver scope, it could be used in lieu of of binoculars... :-)

I see you're located in Southern California, so I'd be curious as to what other countries you might have sailed to from there with a firearm aboard? Especially, if one had a handgun and a semi-automatic rifle as does the OP, where in the Pacific would you go? Mexico is obviously out, as is Canada... French Polynesia would seem to be quite problematic as well, as in France the private possession of handguns and semi-automatic rifles is tightly restricted...

So, from California, aside from Hawaii, where would one first head for in the Pacific? The Galapagos, perhaps? Ecuador's restrictions on firearms do seem a bit less onerous than most...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Or, as one poster has indicated, if you have a rifle fitted with a Weaver scope, it could be used in lieu of of binoculars... :-)

I see you're located in Southern California, so I'd be curious as to what other countries you might have sailed to from there with a firearm aboard? Especially, if one had a handgun and a semi-automatic rifle as does the OP, where in the Pacific would you go? Mexico is obviously out, as is Canada... French Polynesia would seem to be quite problematic as well, as in France the private possession of handguns and semi-automatic rifles is tightly restricted...

So, from California, aside from Hawaii, where would one first head for in the Pacific? The Galapagos, perhaps? Ecuador's restrictions on firearms do seem a bit less onerous than most...

certainly I would remove the scope from the gun before using it as a binoculars, the police dont like you pointing things at them in general :roll eyes:

As I have repeatedly pointed out, many countries have rules for arms aboard ships, that are NOT the same as their citizens are subjected to, or that you would be subjected to if you imported such firearms . You actually CANNOT infer what rules apply to bonded firearms. Some countries have very strong rules, that are tighter then domestic laws ( the US being one) , others have more lenient rules, that allow you to hold firearms on your ship that would otherwise be heavily restricted on land.

[natraps116]

Update, we'll checking into turks and caicos in about 3 weeks so stay tuned. Then onward to DR

Sent from my D6616 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app