Windows 10 and mandatory updates

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

OPEN OFFICE

Yep. I swore off MS Office a few years ago. I don't miss it. I wasn't a heavy user anyway, except for Excel, and I find I like OpenCalc better now.

[Lepke]

My guess, there is some catch to "free" windows 10. Either 10 will have a limited life for updates or there will be some obsolescence built in so we buy 11. If somebody would come up with a real option for a PC operating system, like DR-DOS did years ago, I would be happy to leave Microsoft. I've used windows since 2. I've learned it's usually better to use any software before Microsoft applications like Open Office or Firefox, etc. My main nav software, Maxsea, runs on a Mac. No problems. I run a PC because of the volume of software available.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lepke

My guess, there is some catch to "free" windows 10. Either 10 will have a limited life for updates or there will be some obsolescence built in so we buy 11. If somebody would come up with a real option for a PC operating system, like DR-DOS did years ago, I would be happy to leave Microsoft. I've used windows since 2. I've learned it's usually better to use any software before Microsoft applications like Open Office or Firefox, etc. My main nav software, Maxsea, runs on a Mac. No problems. I run a PC because of the volume of software available.

I think MS is trying to distance itself from the Windows 8 disaster. In my sphere of work, Windows 7 is still the operating system being supplied with new business PC's. Sure, they come with Windows 8 licenses, but remain pre-installed with Windows 7. And no-one ever complains about using an "obsolete" OS.

The free windows 10 offer does have conditions. It's valid only for a certain time and is restricted to the machine it is installed on. i.e. once that machine is dead or replaced, you won't be able to reuse your Windows 10 license. I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 10 licensing changes to include subscription or single use (OEM style) licensing options only. I don't think MS have any sinister reasons for offering Windows 10 for free except to leave the Windows 8 fiasco behind as far as possible and to woo all the happy and contented Windows 7 users who would otherwise have no reason to upgrade. From all reports, Windows 10 is best described as Windows 7 with all the bits from Windows 8 that users actually liked added.

As for alternative operating systems, try Linux. Linux is like ice cream, there's a bunch of different flavours. For example, Ubuntu is popular for desktops with lot's of online support and Mint is popular for older machines lacking in horse power. You don't need to uninstall Windows to try it. IMO Linux has come a long way in the last few years and is now very slick and I would certainly say even beats Windows in some areas. Once upon a time Linux was for geeks only, but nowadays I think it is a viable choice for many users without specific Windows software or device needs. For those that don't know, Android OS is based on Linux.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

I was perfectly happy with Windows 97.

No mention of Windows 97. I was square in the middle of Windows and have no memory of a Windows 97.

A history of Windows - Microsoft Windows

Office 97 OTOH was huge, and ultimately very stable.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

From all reports, Windows 10 is best described as Windows 7 with all the bits from Windows 8 that users actually liked added.

Windows 10 may be "like" Windows 7 but I doubt it. Windows 8 was a very major rewrite of Windows 7, core and most especially User Interface (UI). Windows is a code base, that stretches back a long long ways. Windows XP had major security issues, and Vista really was an attempt to keep the best of XP but fix the security issues. In the XP model, hardware manufacturers wrote their own drivers and they executed in the inner most security ring, full authority to do ANYTHING.

See the following for a not very good explanation of the security rings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_ring


Vista changed that, placing them in (I think) Ring 2 but requiring all drivers to be OKd by Microsoft testing. This "broke" all of the XP drivers and led to major delays getting the most basic hardware back up and running in Vista. Vista got a bad rap, well deserved, but mainly due to this specific problem.

Windows 7 is pretty much Vista, renamed, with stable drivers, and much better security than XP, since drivers can no longer do whatever they want, and additionally have to go through rigorous testing to even be allowed to be installed. The UI is very very similar to XP.

Back to Windows 8, it uses Windows 7 code base (the core) but the UI was a TOTAL rewrite. It was an attempt by MS to make a single Windows which would run on phone, tablet or computer. More importantly it was an attempt to make Windows "look and feel" like the new rage called the tablet. It succeeded all too well!!!

It REQUIRED touch (of course, for phone and tablet) but in the process it threw out all of the windowing stuff from Windows 7 interface. Look around and you won't find much windowing in phones and tablets, simply because they don't have enough screen size to make windows useful.

In Windows version 8 ALL the "new" apps were literally full screen. The little icons in the upper right which allows dropping a window down to "windowed" was gone, because old style, sizeable, not full screen "Windows" were no longer allowed. The minimize button was dropped because the task bar was removed. It used to be that when you minimized a window, it remained visible in the task bar at the bottom of the page. Well... no more task bar.

All of those changes were horribly disorienting to those of us coming from all versions prior (7 and previous), but not particularly disturbing to folks who had never used the versions prior. If you never had true windows, well... you don't miss windows right? But ALL business users (hundreds of millions) using XP and Windows 7 were PISSED and rightly so. Windows 8 was a mess to use if you were used to Windowing and having many different windows open at the same time, sized and placed on your desktop as you see fit, and also multi-monitors. Windows 8 just hosed all of that.

So Windows 10 is Windows 8.2. Windows 8 was selling, but not INSTALLED. ALL business users were getting machines with a Win8 license but Windows 7 installed. So the actual installed Windows 8 base was abysmal (as documented by web page hits which can tell the OS of the machine hitting the web page).

MS decided that folks were so pissed at Windows 8 they didn't stand a prayer of just renaming Windows 8.2 to 9.0, so they decided to "skip" a number and pray that we would not notice it was pretty much 8.2. MS spent years completely rewriting the UI yo be tablet, and the changes were simply too major to drop and go back to the Windows 7 code base and "do over". And in fact, Windows 8 got a major core rewrite as well which really does make it faster, lighter and more secure. In some ways Windows 8 is a better core than Windows 7, it is just that the UI sucked so bad (for the users of 7 and previous). MS has struggled to "undo" some of the most egregious UI issues. They do need to keep something that will do phones and tablets however.

So there ya go. Windows 7 like? Not a chance. At least useable? probably. Faster, cleaner, more secure? Yea, most certainly. Have to go there? Yea, there is no going back.

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

From all reports, Windows 10 is best described as Windows 7 with all the bits from Windows 8 that users actually liked added.

More like Windows 8 struggling to be kinda sorta a little bit like Windows 7.

[Wanderlust]

Thanks for that great writeup and explanation. Nicely written and it brings a lot of clarity.

What trouibles me is that W10 is linked to the hardware, so (apparently) the licence becomes worthless if I build a new PC. And at present I use the same W7 licence for both desktop and laptop. Not sure if that will be an option for W10. Microsoft have not been very open with details of what will happen down the track.

I'm on mobile broadband so need to care about data usage. If I was silly enough to register for the free upgrade, then Microsoft would download 3-4GB in the background before telling me. Considering my monthly mobile broadband plan is a total of 5GB, and I usually have to buy more, I may find I get hit with exorbitant excess usage charges.

Then, if I had a Starter or Home version of Windows, with the inability to stop automatic updates, that would be intolerable for me. Some of them are huge. I turn off all updates so I can choose to download them when not on mobile data.

Finally, I can't see Microsoft giving something for free if it isn't going to give them a big payback down the track. I have the philosophy that if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

So, thanks Microsoft, but no thanks.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Windows 10 may be "like" Windows 7 but I doubt it. Windows 8 was a very major rewrite of Windows 7, core and most especially User Interface (UI). Windows is a code base, that stretches back a long long ways. Windows XP had major security issues, and Vista really was an attempt to keep the best of XP but fix the security issues. In the XP model, hardware manufacturers wrote their own drivers and they executed in the inner most security ring, full authority to do ANYTHING.

See the following for a not very good explanation of the security rings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_ring


Vista changed that, placing them in (I think) Ring 2 but requiring all drivers to be OKd by Microsoft testing. This "broke" all of the XP drivers and led to major delays getting the most basic hardware back up and running in Vista. Vista got a bad rap, well deserved, but mainly due to this specific problem.

Windows 7 is pretty much Vista, renamed, with stable drivers, and much better security than XP, since drivers can no longer do whatever they want, and additionally have to go through rigorous testing to even be allowed to be installed. The UI is very very similar to XP.

Back to Windows 8, it uses Windows 7 code base (the core) but the UI was a TOTAL rewrite. It was an attempt by MS to make a single Windows which would run on phone, tablet or computer. More importantly it was an attempt to make Windows "look and feel" like the new rage called the tablet. It succeeded all too well!!!

It REQUIRED touch (of course, for phone and tablet) but in the process it threw out all of the windowing stuff from Windows 7 interface. Look around and you won't find much windowing in phones and tablets, simply because they don't have enough screen size to make windows useful.

In Windows version 8 ALL the "new" apps were literally full screen. The little icons in the upper right which allows dropping a window down to "windowed" was gone, because old style, sizeable, not full screen "Windows" were no longer allowed. The minimize button was dropped because the task bar was removed. It used to be that when you minimized a window, it remained visible in the task bar at the bottom of the page. Well... no more task bar.

All of those changes were horribly disorienting to those of us coming from all versions prior (7 and previous), but not particularly disturbing to folks who had never used the versions prior. If you never had true windows, well... you don't miss windows right? But ALL business users (hundreds of millions) using XP and Windows 7 were PISSED and rightly so. Windows 8 was a mess to use if you were used to Windowing and having many different windows open at the same time, sized and placed on your desktop as you see fit, and also multi-monitors. Windows 8 just hosed all of that.

So Windows 10 is Windows 8.2. Windows 8 was selling, but not INSTALLED. ALL business users were getting machines with a Win8 license but Windows 7 installed. So the actual installed Windows 8 base was abysmal (as documented by web page hits which can tell the OS of the machine hitting the web page).

MS decided that folks were so pissed at Windows 8 they didn't stand a prayer of just renaming Windows 8.2 to 9.0, so they decided to "skip" a number and pray that we would not notice it was pretty much 8.2. MS spent years completely rewriting the UI yo be tablet, and the changes were simply too major to drop and go back to the Windows 7 code base and "do over". And in fact, Windows 8 got a major core rewrite as well which really does make it faster, lighter and more secure. In some ways Windows 8 is a better core than Windows 7, it is just that the UI sucked so bad (for the users of 7 and previous). MS has struggled to "undo" some of the most egregious UI issues. They do need to keep something that will do phones and tablets however.

So there ya go. Windows 7 like? Not a chance. At least useable? probably. Faster, cleaner, more secure? Yea, most certainly. Have to go there? Yea, there is no going back.



More like Windows 8 struggling to be kinda sorta a little bit like Windows 7.

Thank you for providing so much information. I'm still on W7 and totally happy with it but I'm not an IT pro. I just use IE for surfing the net and Word for writing letters. Suits me.

No doubt sometime soon I will be forced by Microsoft to trash W7 the same way I was forced to trash XP.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by savoir

No doubt sometime soon I will be forced by Microsoft to trash W7 the same way I was forced to trash XP.

The thing to understand is that the XP security model really was "broken". It was dead simple to get at the ring 0 (CORE OS!) level and do anything you wanted. The bad guys had a field day, installing trojans that were almost impossible to even find. If they can get at Ring 0 then there is simply no limit to how they can hook in and muck with your machine.

Vista changed all that, and the change was GOOD! Sadly they rushed to market. There was simply no way to keep all the old hardware drivers, the new model forbid ring 0 installs and everyone was doing that. So ALL of the old drivers broke. Even things like printers, mice... the simple stuff.

Vista / Windows 7 is a major security upgrade (GOOD!!!) and absolutely REQUIRED to START the cracking down on the bad guys.

As for upgrading Win7, the end of support date is 2021 IIRC. That is when Windows 7 security updates will cease. All non-security updates have already ceased. So bugs that are not security related are no longer being fixed for Windows 7. But if you like Windows 7 and want to stay with it, then you have until 2021, at which point even security bugs will not be fixed.

Maybe.

Windows XP security upgrades were SUPPOSED to be abandoned but MS has been forced to continue those security fixes, while spreading FUD about whether that was actually happening to prompt us to move off of XP.

[savoir]

I doubt that any of the computers which I have now will still be working in 2021. 4 - 5 years seems to be their limit.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by savoir

Here is a solution that will suit whoever has W7. This only applies if you have not already accepted W10.

The updates giving you trouble are
2952664 and 3035583

Search your updates and delete both. At the same time convert your update system to 100% manual. Both updates will return but at least you can ignore them.

Very helpful, it worked. Time consuming to do, but worth it. Thanks so much.

[franrick]

Hi all,

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here (unless I missed it) is that if you decide to take Microsoft's W10 offer and decide you don't like it, you have the option of going back to your previous W7/8 instalation. Or in other words Roll Back the what you had before, without a loss of data etc.

I will probably try W10 knowing I can go back to 7.

Another thing, there are plenty of places to obtain a Win 7 ISO file.

Microsoft have not done themselves any favors lately and I think W10 might be their way of playing catchup with the public.

Te be honest, I have had enough of MS trying to tie us up and keep us on a string, I don't use Apple for that reason and might give Linux another look after many years away from it.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Very helpful, it worked. Time consuming to do, but worth it. Thanks so much.

And remember , if you are having a bad hair day you can always enter both updates and then delete them. I find it very therapeutic.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by franrick

Hi all,

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here (unless I missed it) is that if you decide to take Microsoft's W10 offer and decide you don't like it, you have the option of going back to your previous W7/8 instalation. Or in other words Roll Back the what you had before, without a loss of data etc.

Well... maybe:

How to recover a previous build(s) or your original version of - Microsoft Community

Will this continue to work once the final release is in place?

Another thing, there are plenty of places to obtain a Win 7 ISO file.

Yes, you can still buy Win 7.

Microsoft have not done themselves any favors lately and I think W10 might be their way of playing catchup with the public.

Te be honest, I have had enough of MS trying to tie us up and keep us on a string, I don't use Apple for that reason and might give Linux another look after many years away from it.

I have no use for Apple either. Linux has come a long way but it is still a whole 'nother can of worms. In fact it is about 47 different cans of worms. They really need to stop with the dozens of versions and get ONE version dead simple to use.

[Reefmagnet]

Based on the question of updates with limited connectivity, here's a relevant comparison between Win 8 and Ubuntu (Linux).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4GZkFULufA

[jwcolby54]

This is a year old of course.