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buzzstar · 28-02-2017, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L

This site indicates there is significantly more than 4min vs 3 min 59 secs timeout - although that does have a nice anti- bureaucracy ring to it.
ICOM DSC Radio Not Fully Compliant - CONTINUOUSWAVE

IF I remember correctly, the story is even stranger than I quickly read above. A. the 802 is accepted as compliant in the remainder of the word (although I have vague recollection there were a couple of exceptions). B. With the removal of the 802, there were, and are, no alternatives available in the US market. C. Supposedly ICOM is planning a new version, but it will not be available for several years.

Not only is the above based upon memory, but the memory itself may be based upon incorrect information. Accordingly anyone with actual knowledge is a better source. I will not comment on my opinion of the US Federal Communications Commission, but this whole imbroglio is but one example of how agendas not only may but can and do affect what should be straight forward technical matters.

btrayfors · 28-02-2017, 11:04

Brian,

Thanks for bringing this up. Yes, I think this is a lot more complicated than we know. And, one thing for sure: we don't know the whole story.

It's been said in this thread over and over that the problem is with the FCC. Well, it's not. The problem is with the failure of the M802, the M504, and other Icom radios to meet the DSC protocols. Guess what? These protocols were NOT set by the FCC. They are the result of International Treaty provisions as embodied by the ITU in the GMDSS. DSC is an important component of the GMDSS specification.

Could it be that only the FCC has determined this? Stranger things have happened. In theory, if these radios do not meet the internationally-prescribed DSC protocol in the U.S. -- as noted by the FCC -- then they don't meet them elsewhere either. But, we're led to believe that no one outside the U.S. really cares, and Icom continues to ship these radios to dealers outside the U.S.

What makes this so frustrating is that the 802 (and the 801 in the EU) were marketed for YEARS as meeting the GMDSS protocols, but then they no longer did. First in Europe, now in the U.S.

Alternatives? Not really. Almost all current DSC MF/HF radios are in the $6,000 to $10,000 or greater class. Much too much for a recreational vessel. Icom continues to confuse the situation by allowing rumours to persist. First they were going to do a quick fix via a firmware upgrade. Then, it was reported that the 504 and the 802 could not be upgraded via firmware. Then it was rumoured that Icom was coming out with a "fixed" 802. Now, it doesn't seem so. And, while rumours persist of a "new radio model" it seems unlikely that Icom is really going to come out soon with something to replace the M802 that's anywhere near in the same price class.

Meanwhile, the kerfuffle continues unabated. The victims in this are likely to be newbies who have little experience with HF radio on a boat, and are going to conclude that it's all not worth it anyway because they have, e.g., satphones and other satellite-based devices as reasonable alternatives.

Very, very sad.

Bill

**a64pilot** · 28-02-2017, 12:14

Well I still plan on installing mine, just glad I bought it before I actually needed it.
I think if I didn't have one, but was planning a future HF, I'd get one now, cause while I bet there will be a compliant radio in the future, I bet it comes with a future price

Mike OReilly · 28-02-2017, 14:41

Does anyone have an explanation as to why it is only the American regulator that has an issue with the Icoms? Or are there other countries which have also raised concerns?

buzzstar · 28-02-2017, 14:53

I do, but it is more a loose hypothesis of bureaucratic power, inflexibility, and stubbornness, and perhaps by a producer, than an explanation, and accordingly if not dicernable from the initial part of the statement should and will a mystery. Additionally, I would not be surprised if there were actual technical reasons that I do not comprehend.

DotDun · 28-02-2017, 14:59

Per an Icom person at the boat show">Miami Boat Show, they are real close (within a few weeks) to a waiver from the FCC to sell the 802 again until they spin a new radio. The party line from Icom is the FCC changed the DSC compliance and it's a hardware spin to fix it.

Pizzazz · 28-02-2017, 15:32

There may be an easier explanation. The recreational demand for these marine radios has shrank so much that it is not worth for Icom to develop a new radio or even bother with a waiver. So they focus on the higher end of the spectrum.

Meanwhile, I have come across a PC program called PersonalDSC that claims to encode and decode HF DSC for $79. It is sold via Amazon and eBay but not marketed well. I will order one and report here if it works. If it did, it would make any SSB radio DSC capable.

**a64pilot** · 28-02-2017, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

There may be an easier explanation. The recreational demand for these marine radios has shrank so much that it is not worth for Icom to develop a new radio or even bother with a waiver. So they focus on the higher end of the spectrum.

This I find very likely.

Your PC program may work, but unlikely to fulfill the legal obligations. Like I'm sure many pyrotechnics will actually work as signaling devices, but are not approved

DotDun · 28-02-2017, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Meanwhile, I have come across a PC program called PersonalDSC that claims to encode and decode HF DSC for $79. It is sold via Amazon and eBay but not marketed well. I will order one and report here if it works. If it did, it would make any SSB radio DSC capable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

This I find very likely.

Your PC program may work, but unlikely to fulfill the legal obligations. Like I'm sure many pyrotechnics will actually work as signaling devices, but are not approved

Does the PC operate the radio to scan the (4) DSC frequencies?

Pizzazz · 28-02-2017, 17:13

The program comes from highseasradio.com which seems a legitimate company. I do not know yet but I believe it is a type approved program. Bow regarding the frequency scanning, it will be a manual process. Set the radio to scan the 4 or 6 DSC frequencies, then transmit your message on one, continue to scan all six. Transmit on the other then go back to scanning. It is a kludge but should not be that hard to develop further. I am checking into it. Ideally, this should be an Android app with CAT.

Comix Bay · 28-02-2017, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Two items of interest in the RadioWorld listing.

1. I assume all prices are in Canadian dollars. If so, the $2,399 price is about the same as the discounted U.S. price, i.e., just over $1,800 U.S.

2. The Product Description makes no mention whatsoever of DSC capability. Is this one of the "non-DSC" 802s such as can be found in, e.g., Singapore?

Bill

From the web site quoted previously:

Built-in digital selective calling

For added safety at sea, the IC-M802 offers the latest in one-touch DSC emergency communications technology. (ITU Class E standard.) The emergency button is covered by a red, spring loaded hatch to avoid accidental DSC activation

IslandHopper · 28-02-2017, 17:20

Just FYI I emailed the Australian Communications & Media Authority (ACMA) to find out what there take is on compliance down here, specifically the IC-M802, IC-M801E and the IC-M604A VHF. The reason for asking about the IC-M604A VHF is because I also see the US have issues with it to, plus I have just recently purchased both the M801E & M604A so want to cover my arse.

As for the M802, I don't have one, but if any Aussies are looking to install one down here it may pay to look for the C-Tick or RCM...

See attached screenshot of email, plus a couple of pics of my radios, all good here

*Obviously I didn't use my CF username*

buzzstar · 28-02-2017, 20:20

Does anyone have an unspun (if there is such a word) version of the reasons, timing of, and responsibility for events? E.g., Icom M802 (and produced from xxxx, new requirements adopted by ITU in xxxx for GMDSS/DSS M-802 (and M-504) in (or technically not in) compliance as of xxxx but OK, then FCC said not in compliance and halted sales. Anyway, that type of thing. I am sitting here with a half formed belief that the present non-compliance has alway existed, but it was so relatively minor that no one cared until the FCC decided it was important, and acted in a fashion that while technically correct, was so minor as to be frivolous. Or maybe it is not. I do not know or pretend to know. Poster btrayfors sped me along this route, although I was wobbling along on it anyway. Thanks.

DotDun · 01-03-2017, 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Does anyone have an unspun (if there is such a word) version of the reasons, timing of, and responsibility for events? E.g., Icom M802 (and produced from xxxx, new requirements adopted by ITU in xxxx for GMDSS/DSS M-802 (and M-504) in (or technically not in) compliance as of xxxx but OK, then FCC said not in compliance and halted sales. Anyway, that type of thing. I am sitting here with a half formed belief that the present non-compliance has alway existed, but it was so relatively minor that no one cared until the FCC decided it was important, and acted in a fashion that while technically correct, was so minor as to be frivolous. Or maybe it is not. I do not know or pretend to know. Poster btrayfors sped me along this route, although I was wobbling along on it anyway. Thanks.

Why don't you go read the ICOM FCC filings instead of somebody else's 'spin'??

I've read it!