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Old 24-01-2012, 12:10   #346
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Sidmon - what did you mean by this statement?

"By contrast, military pilots don't reach the totals the two FOs had through an entire career."

ANY decent pilot knows flight hour totals are DAMN near meaningless..

(my aviation safety quals are that my last career job was Head of USCG Aviation Safety...not a long career in safety but intense with all the training that goes along with it)
Surely then you must know that to get even into the right seat of an airline like Air France, you have to already have considerable transport category aircraft time, and also a significant percentage fo that as Pilot In Command....


And in case you missed it I have been linking peer reivewed serious works on the subject (along with a few media accounts but Ex-Calif Was wrong-not from Popular Mechanics)

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Old 24-01-2012, 12:42   #347
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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I scanned the boat links. I didn't do a deep dive. I dont say that in defense, only to clarify.

I reject evidence that is not credible. I pointed out all the problems I have with your citations. Fundamentally you chose them to make your points rather than discuss the truth.
That is science and we didn't refer to popular mechanics once...
Lets see. You were wrong about me citing Popular Science.

About citing Nigel Calder...its was the prolific poster Nigel1 -and professional mariner- on this board. Who discourages "integrated" autopilot use by his watchstanders.

About the AAL crew into Cali "not looking at computerized screens"

About the direct links between automation in the aero and in the nautical worlds and the amount of serious human factrors work relates to both.

Anyway I know you won't find it credible, and with a bare glance will tell all to ignore it, but try this one on:

Early Studies
As early as 1977 the first alarm was sounded by the late Elwyn Edwards (1977), who examined for the first time the broad question of human factors of cockpit automation. At the same time concerns were being expressed in the U.S. Congress. Two Congressional reports identified automation as a safety problem for the coming decade (U.S. House of Representatives, 1977; U.S. Senate, 1980). There was much talk of "the automation problem," but no person nor any agency was prepared to say with any certainty what "the problem" was. In 1979 NASA Ames Research Center was tasked with examining the safety implications and human factors in automated flight. The Congressional subcommittees had no trouble recognizing the positive side; what they wanted to know was whether there was a "down side." Quite simply, were there also
adverse consequences of the new flight decks that the manufacturers, regulators, and future operators were overlooking?
The project was assigned to Dr. Renwick Curry, then of NASA Ames, and Professor Earl Wiener, on leave at Ames from the University of Miami. Their collaboration produced a comprehensive report (Wiener and Curry, 1980) on the human factors of cockpit automation, proceeding beyond Edwards' initial work (1977). They produced a list of 15 guidelines for the design and utilization of cockpit automation. Guidelines from other authors followed (see Billings, 1997). Following the publication of their 1980
paper, Wiener and Curry conducted three field studies of the adaptation of the new aircraft into the fleets of several airlines (Curry, 1985; Wiener, 1985b, 1989).
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Old 24-01-2012, 12:55   #348
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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About citing Nigel Calder...its was the prolific poster Nigel1 -and professional mariner- on this board. Who discourages "integrated" autopilot use by his watchstanders.

.
Just for the record, I am not Mr. Calder, he is a repected sailor who has written some good books on boat mechanics and electicaL systems.
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Old 24-01-2012, 13:10   #349
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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FWIW...I am ...Who has also been a party to an investigation. Whomever runs this venue can fact check where I am posting this from.
[...]
Classic study in "Human Factors"
I just traced your IP to Italy? No kidding, are you really Schettino??!!

Indeed, some serious studying of Human Factors is required here


ciao!
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Old 24-01-2012, 18:27   #350
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I don't have a dog in this thread battle other that the reading amusement. BUT.............. I do expect total capitulation to what I type and expect universal agreement. I have pills for the blood pressure already so this isn't an issue!

Now bow down and agree with me!

PS - especially all Dan's
I agree.
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Old 24-01-2012, 18:48   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidmon

FWIW...I am a licensed pilot as well...and while I do not fly for a living I am a "commercial aviation professional"...Who has also been a party to an investigation. Whomever runs this venue can fact check where I am posting this from.

Bottom line though. Ex-Calif is simply incorrect on a whole lot of the details. Then makes sweeping conclusions based on outright wrong conclusions that he had in his mind all along. Then imperiously proclaims that what he does not deem "credible" (even though he never read it) be ignored....because he is a "commercial aviation professional"

And unless he was a lead investigator in the military, or the NTSB he never "lead" one.

Then wants to chide about forum decorum while throwing insults.

So spare me.

Never said I know it all. Don't and am in fact always am wanting to find out more. Heck why do you think I dredge up all those links!

Just find it a real hoot how a select few of "the elders" (1000+ commenters) here are the ones who appear so closed minded, quickest to throw insults, and quickest to get offended if you jab back.

Classic study in "Human Factors"
Phase 1 of internet conversations - ctiation wars
Phase 2 of internet conversations - I am insulted and he is insulting
Phase 3 of internet conversations - forget the original topic this is about you and me and who is smarter

I disagree with you. I stated what I think pretty clearly. I did not knowingly intend to insult you. If you are insulted I apologize. I always thought we were talking about the topic, not you and me.

So I don't want to appear rude (by not responding) but I'll retire at this point - anything further I say would be more than repetitive and most people have expressed they would like to talk about boats. Unlike Sysyphus I don't need to keep rolling the same rock up the same hill.

If it makes you feel good, you are right and I am wrong. See, I didn't burst into flames...
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Old 24-01-2012, 22:00   #352
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Or BOLD and shouting print.
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Old 25-01-2012, 07:13   #353
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidmon View Post
Surely then you must know that to get even into the right seat of an airline like Air France, you have to already have considerable transport category aircraft time, and also a significant percentage fo that as Pilot In Command....


And in case you missed it I have been linking peer reivewed serious works on the subject (along with a few media accounts but Ex-Calif Was wrong-not from Popular Mechanics)
As I have posted too...after a career of flying for the USCG with my final position as Head of all aviation safety for them...two things...

1. While I agree with the complacency theory...the rest you and many people are way off base blaming integrated systems for accidents...for more reasons I can even begin to type on a forum reply.

2. If you think total flying hours means anything other than the "oh wow" expression from lesser time pilots...you really don't know much.

I have LOTs of friends that are commercial pilots from private roots at all levels and dozens that are retired military now flying commercial at all levels. UNIVERSALLY they all say that 1 hour military is like 100 hours civilian...some say that there is no comparison ...EVER. But like me they will say some flying is the same no matter what...but very few jobs.

So spout off all you like but the NTSB just blew a GIANT hole in your basic theory. Sure human factors are inportant...and I'm very familiar with the many concepts of human factors (help pioneer it in the US Military)...but you are applying the wrong ones and any references you choose to support you claims.
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Old 25-01-2012, 07:22   #354
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidmon View Post
Surely then you must know that to get even into the right seat of an airline like Air France, you have to already have considerable transport category aircraft time, and also a significant percentage fo that as Pilot In Command....


And in case you missed it I have been linking peer reivewed serious works on the subject (along with a few media accounts but Ex-Calif Was wrong-not from Popular Mechanics)
"Surely then you must know that to get even into the right seat of an airline like Air France, you have to already have considerable transport category aircraft time, and also a significant percentage fo that as Pilot In Command...."

I do but it's meaningless....

You have to have a lot of sea time before taking command of a cruise ship...what's your point? Hours droning along at 30,000 ft or 100,000 sea miles are useless in terms of experience. Hear any recent news about a cruise ship captain???...

You have to look at actual (not simulated)emergencies handled, number of landings/takeoffs, other critical manuevers, etc...etc for true experience. I can cite dozens of accidents that happened because the pilots overrode automation because they DIDN'T believe what was happening.

As I said about the NTSB recent ruling.... that distraction...not the manipulation of devices is just as bad, if not worse. Good operators USE equipment...not abuse it...it still falls under human factors because automated/integrated systems should have failsafes built into the and until they do...it's still out job to properly use/interpret them.
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Old 25-01-2012, 10:03   #355
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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As I have posted too...after a career of flying for the USCG with my final position as Head of all aviation safety for them...two things...

1. While I agree with the complacency theory...the rest you and many people are way off base blaming integrated systems for accidents...for more reasons I can even begin to type on a forum reply.
Take the time to read this guy's work

When a previously manual process is automated...Unless the new process is "integrated" back to the basics, the problems documented in the many links provided can occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
2. If you think total flying hours means anything other than the "oh wow" expression from lesser time pilots...you really don't know much.

I have LOTs of friends that are commercial pilots from private roots at all levels and dozens that are retired military now flying commercial at all levels. UNIVERSALLY they all say that 1 hour military is like 100 hours civilian...some say that there is no comparison ...EVER. But like me they will say some flying is the same no matter what...but very few jobs.

I learned to sail in Alameda in the '60s. The base marina was right at the foot of the left pier in this pic


O'day 16's and Cal 21's. Great place to learn to sail. When the carriers were there as in this pic, it made for some interesting fluky winds. The one to the furthest left is the Coral Sea. Dad was XO at the time. And talk about being up close and personal to a confluence of the aero and nautical! Those big grey behemoths are pretty impressive from a 16 foot daysailer.

So point is, I know all about the qualitative differences between civil and military hours. Grew up around that stuff. But that wasn't the point. The AF flying pilots were highly seasoned pilots and not newbies. And while there were conflicting signals, why they failed to recognize they were in a classic stall has everything to do with an over reliance on automation.

But what we think doesn't matter. Air France thinks so to...And they working hard to correct it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
So spout off all you like but the NTSB just blew a GIANT hole in your basic theory. Sure human factors are inportant...and I'm very familiar with the many concepts of human factors (help pioneer it in the US Military)...but you are applying the wrong ones and any references you choose to support you claims.
Where is the giant hole the NTSB just blew? Can you reference it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
As I said about the NTSB recent ruling.... that distraction...not the manipulation of devices is just as bad, if not worse. Good operators USE equipment...not abuse it...it still falls under human factors because automated/integrated systems should have failsafes built into the and until they do...it's still out job to properly use/interpret them.
I take it you mean this? Then where is it that we disagree? Because I have been saying the same thing throughout this thread.

Looks like we are in a state of violent agreement.
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Old 25-01-2012, 10:06   #356
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Phase 1 of internet conversations - ctiation wars
Phase 2 of internet conversations - I am insulted and he is insulting
Phase 3 of internet conversations - forget the original topic this is about you and me and who is smarter

I disagree with you. I stated what I think pretty clearly. I did not knowingly intend to insult you. If you are insulted I apologize. I always thought we were talking about the topic, not you and me.

So I don't want to appear rude (by not responding) but I'll retire at this point - anything further I say would be more than repetitive and most people have expressed they would like to talk about boats. Unlike Sysyphus I don't need to keep rolling the same rock up the same hill.

If it makes you feel good, you are right and I am wrong. See, I didn't burst into flames...
Never was offended by you disagreeing with me. Just a bit frustrated with the imperious way that you called sources I linked not credible when you hadn't read them...or had them mistakenly attributed to someone else.

cheers
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Old 25-01-2012, 20:32   #357
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

parting shots...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I have postulated that the truth comes from NTSB reports.


(Ex-calif not expecting "total capitulation"...simply providing some grist for you to peruse on your automated couch...may beat Jersy Shore)

But for others, it shows that in an environment more similar to the operating patterns of yachts (and the demographics of the owners), the introduction of "integrated" electronics has been a two edged sword. I do not believe that Ex-Cailf will find the provenance of this link anything short of "the truth":

(for my Aussie mates...I did not resize this...)

Even before electronic displays became common, anecdotal reports from flight crews, as well as findings from accidents and research, revealed potential problems if pilots relied too heavily on automated systems or if they misunderstood automated system behavior.21

Subsequent fatal air carrier accidents, like the April 26, 1994, crash of a China Airlines Airbus 300-600 in Nagoya, Japan, and the December 20, 1995, American Airlines Boeing 757 crash near Cali, Colombia, drew further attention to the issues of human interaction with computerized aircraft systems...

A 2001 study conducted by the U.S. Army Aeromedical Research Laboratory25 examined how the Army’s move to glass cockpits had affected safety in real-world flight operations. The study analyzed accident rates of four models of helicopters with conventional and glass cockpit configurations. Study results indicated a significantly higher accident rate for the glass cockpit configuration group than for the conventional cockpit group.

The fatal accident rate for the glass cockpit cohort exceeded the rate of fatal accidents per 100,000 hours for the conventional cohort for both years, and for all general aviation operations in 2006.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
...your connections of cali and af to the cruise ship are way off base in regards to automation and navigation integration. All three may have a common factor of human error.


Yes they do...And I know we agree...However here is a quote from Andrew Linington (do you know him Nigel1?)

In the days after the disaster, Schettino admitted that he had wanted to send a greeting to his friend on the island, and that something had gone wrong during the maneuver. But his statements on the course of events were contradictory. On one occasion, he said that he had been "navigating by sight," but before that he had said that the rock did not appear on maps.
This could very well be true. Although the rock is clearly visible on traditional paper nautical maps, modern ship bridges are equipped with monitors that use the so-called ECDIS system. It combines electronic nautical charts with data from the satellite navigation receiver and the radar equipment. It also uses the ship's sonar and the relatively new AIS anti-collision system.
But the high-tech system is not perfect. "ECDIS representations are only as good as the data you enter. And there are serious problems with the user interface and the ergonomics," says Andrew Linington, a spokesman for Nautilus International, the union for maritime professionals. Sometimes the digital charts made by the various manufacturers are not 100 percent correct. For example, some errors only appear at certain magnification levels. The investigators will have to clarify this.

huh...I caught a whole bunch of grief postulating the same thing...(but this isn't about me)

More...From January 2011:

Sir Jeremy [Rear Admiral Sir Jeremy Halpert] said it was a shame that the shipping industry had not followed aviation...

anyway...feel free to read the rest.


Beware of the Sirens!

Happy Sails.




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Old 25-01-2012, 20:52   #358
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Yes, be careful or you will put an eye out.

Thank you

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Old 25-01-2012, 22:23   #359
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

I found a yacht with integrated autopilot today. It looks like it did not go well, I am still in doubt if I will attempt the salvage:

Just like that along the banks of the Rio Chagres in the Panamanian jungle. Beware of the monster called "complacency"! Send donations to help to fight it!

(click photo to see more of what I saw today)

cheers,
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Old 26-01-2012, 04:02   #360
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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(click photo to see more of what I saw today)

cheers,
Nick.

I did, looked like a nice day out, and you even caught a couple of my company''s ships (from the container division) on camera.
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