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Old 19-01-2012, 12:05   #181
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

And the news today states that the wrecked cruiseship was being steered by hand and doing a closeup pass of the harbor way outside its allowed range. The rock it hit was on their chart, but the captain was showboating and not looking at any navigational aids or using any electronic devices at the time.

I think eyeballs should be outlawed, or at least there should be compulsory training to use them.

Mark
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Old 19-01-2012, 12:15   #182
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Originally Posted by sidmon View Post
I primarily singlehand Nick...

As for the how common it is...The proof is vivid off Giglio and sitting on Astrolabe.

Go back and look. My only point is that as these systems migrate into pleasure boats, the same human factors issue will reveal itself.

You don't think so. I think you are wrong.
If you single hand and refuse to use modern navigation tools then you are probably a danger to us all!

But about Giglio, I am gonna repeat this again because you seem to miss it often: the guy used eyeball navigation, not a single dangerous electronic aid, not even a display. All the other ships in the area used electronic integrated nav... none of them crashed

Astrolabe? Are you seriously comparing todays technology to a piece of scrap metal used in the year 1200 or so?!

Am I wrong or is it simply you who is lost in your single-hand, old-salt, die-hard, aboard-an-ancient-design-boat fantasy-world where everything used to be so good and it all comes tumbling down today... Wake up call! enjoy your sails, not enough time to try to stop progress!

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Old 19-01-2012, 12:16   #183
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
And the news today states that the wrecked cruiseship was being steered by hand and doing a closeup pass of the harbor way outside its allowed range. The rock it hit was on their chart, but the captain was showboating and not looking at any navigational aids or using any electronic devices at the time.

I think eyeballs should be outlawed, or at least there should be compulsory training to use them.

Mark
If only they have been using their intergated autopilot system to follow the correct track.
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Old 19-01-2012, 12:46   #184
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Now I'm confused:

"...he made an unauthorized deviation from the ship's programmed course that brought him too close to the reefs off the tiny island of Giglio."

So they would have been OK if they had been using a highly integrated autopilot on a programmed course????? How can that be - those things kill people, not help them...

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Old 19-01-2012, 12:54   #185
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
If you single hand and refuse to use modern navigation tools then you are probably a danger to us all!

But about Giglio, I am gonna repeat this again because you seem to miss it often: the guy used eyeball navigation, not a single dangerous electronic aid, not even a display. All the other ships in the area used electronic integrated nav... none of them crashed

Astrolabe? Are you seriously comparing todays technology to a piece of scrap metal used in the year 1200 or so?!

Am I wrong or is it simply you who is lost in your single-hand, old-salt, die-hard, aboard-an-ancient-design-boat fantasy-world where everything used to be so good and it all comes tumbling down today... Wake up call! enjoy your sails, not enough time to try to stop progress!

ciao!
Nick.
More snort. Go back a few pages and you will read that I have worked with advanced nav control systems -both maritime and aviation- for the better part of three decades.

While an Old Salt, I'm right savvy about it all. So thats why I am perhaps alerting to something you have been completely oblivious to.

Astrolabe...As in the reef with the remains of the M/V Rena sitting atop it.

Now. how did THAT happen?!?!?!

Quote:
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But about Giglio, I am gonna repeat this again because you seem to miss it often: the guy used eyeball navigation, not a single dangerous electronic aid, not even a display.
The man said, "the rocks were not charted"...

Again, it is the erosion of basic skills and sense of prudence -brought about by a tacit belief in the infallibility of electronic nav systems- that is the problem.
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:02   #186
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

I don't think anyone is saying that electronic navigation aids are bad or that we should all go back to 19th century navigation but what some of us professionals are concerned about is excessive reliance on what is supposed to be an aid not the be all and end all. People need to be aware that these systems are not 100% correct 100% of the time. Believing they are, sometimes despite the evidence of your own eyes can lead to grief. You are supposed to monitor your position and progress by all means available and appropriate. As for the Concordia's Master he obviously screwed up or the ship would not be where it is now. How he did so has still to be determined but whatever he did or did not do he certainly was not making use of all the equipment at his disposal. An integrated bridge system which is what he would have had and it would have been set up, did not save him but then neither did the Mark 1 eyeball so as I said earlier nobody is perfect and everybody makes mistakes. Some mistakes are a bit harder to bear than others.

Hi Nigel - know exactly what you mean. My current pet peeve is PI lines carefully plotted on the chart and nobody having a clue as to setting them up on the radars (all 3 of them). Good for a hissy fit!
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:03   #187
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Now I'm confused:

"...he made an unauthorized deviation from the ship's programmed course that brought him too close to the reefs off the tiny island of Giglio."

So they would have been OK if they had been using a highly integrated autopilot on a programmed course????? How can that be - those things kill people, not help them...

Mark
Never. Not Once. Has anyone ever said that here Mark.
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:08   #188
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Never. Not Once. Has anyone ever said that here Mark.
Didn't you bring up the Vincienes and the cruise ship as examples of integrated electronics gone bad? Didn't people die in those examples?

Mark
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:16   #189
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Didn't you bring up the Vincienes and the cruise ship as examples of integrated electronics gone bad? Didn't people die in those examples?

Mark
Nope.

You saw what you wanted.

Those are cases where electronics data display systems (as the Vincennes was not a nav issue-but it shares many similarities) fostered a false sense of infallibility.

Its a human problem.
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:30   #190
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

How about this quote from this thread then:

"Integrated electronics allow stupid people to look smart until they hit something easily avoided, perhaps killing themselves or others in the process."

And many more like this one warning about deadly head on collisions, assigning the loss of a leg during a reef wreck to integrated electronics, and many others warning of personal harm. While not directly stating that people will be killed, that sentiment is deeply implied throughout.

Did you read this whole thread or just jump in at this point?

And I'm pretty sure the posts I mentioned were from you and not a figment of my imagination.

It's always a human problem - from the time of navigating by judging ocean wave patterns and bird flights through sextants through satellite systems. And it is not getting any worse - quite the opposite, I'll bet.

Mark
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:39   #191
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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How about this quote from this thread then:

"Integrated electronics allow stupid people to look smart until they hit something easily avoided, perhaps killing themselves or others in the process."

And many more like this one warning about deadly head on collisions, assigning the loss of a leg during a reef wreck to integrated electronics, and many others warning of personal harm. While not directly stating that people will be killed, that sentiment is deeply implied throughout.

Did you read this whole thread or just jump in at this point?

And I'm pretty sure the posts I mentioned were from you and not a figment of my imagination.

It's always a human problem - from the time of navigating by judging ocean wave patterns and bird flights through sextants through satellite systems. And it is not getting any worse - quite the opposite, I'll bet.

Mark

Show me the quotes where I have blamed the electronics...
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Old 19-01-2012, 13:48   #192
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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It's always a human problem - from the time of navigating by judging ocean wave patterns and bird flights through sextants through satellite systems. And it is not getting any worse - quite the opposite, I'll bet.

Mark
Has the investment -considerable investment- prevented such things?

The USN has had some of its worst groundings ever after implementation of integrated nav systems. So has the airline industry. And so has the cruise ship industry.

Huh.

How'd that happen?!?!?!

More food for thought
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Old 19-01-2012, 14:03   #193
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

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Neither of those incidents have anything to do with electronics or autopilots. They are down to human error

I guarantee you the "human error" was believing the "computer" knew what it was doing, over their lying eyes.

Boats hit things everyday, usually while the captain was doing something other than driving his ship, IE watching chartplotter, radar, etc...
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Old 19-01-2012, 14:24   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl

I guarantee you the "human error" was believing the "computer" knew what it was doing, over their lying eyes.

Boats hit things everyday, usually while the captain was doing something other than driving his ship, IE watching chartplotter, radar, etc...
Sure, sure. Radars and chartplotters show false info, got that.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 19-01-2012, 14:27   #195
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Re: Why Integrate the Autopilot ?

Nearly 200 posts, and there hasn't been one sensible reason given not to integrate an autopilot.....
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