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Old 26-12-2014, 11:06   #61
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

I'm sure there are reasons why an AIS transceiver cost so much. Until the price point comes down I don't see them going into a VHF chasse. I've already upgraded to the Vesper VHF/AIS antenna though.

Now the Standard Horizon Matrix would be just perfect if it had the NMEA 2000 on board. I must be missing something cause 0183 instead of 2000 is like a TV with RCA inputs instead of HDMI.
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Old 26-12-2014, 12:54   #62
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Class B can skip time slots as needed.
Not if it wants to be certified and type approved. A Class B may only miss it's transmission interval if it cannot find an available slot within a specific window centered on it's scheduled transmission time.
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Old 26-12-2014, 15:14   #63
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

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Originally Posted by toddedger View Post

Now the Standard Horizon Matrix would be just perfect if it had the NMEA 2000 on board. I must be missing something cause 0183 instead of 2000 is like a TV with RCA inputs instead of HDMI.
Please could you expand on this statement. This is not my understanding of the difference between 0183 and 2000. Could you explain how I could interface the 0183 output into a RAYMARINE NMEA2000 system?.
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Old 26-12-2014, 15:23   #64
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gi-Lo View Post
Please could you expand on this statement. This is not my understanding of the difference between 0183 and 2000. Could you explain how I could interface the 0183 output into a RAYMARINE NMEA2000 system?.
Most chart plotters have NMEA0183 inputs as well as NMEA2000. If yours does not, then you could use a converter like one by Actisense or others.

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Old 26-12-2014, 16:17   #65
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
So why don't they build a VHF with an AIS transceiver on-board? Ah yes, they will do that 3 years after these models come out. It's part of their continuing revenue plans....
I think the issue is the station license required in some countries with the transponder. You at least have to register the transponder. This may explain why its not a total package. The part I could never understand is why these were originally only offered without a GPS antenna. The built in antenna adds only a few dollars and makes this independent of other equipment.

We have the Watchmate 850 that only consumes 7 -10 watts and is total stand-alone AND performs anchor watch. I have lost two SH VHS radios to lighting and always get the latest upgrade. The unit you propose was listed as available following our last ZAP but We$t had none in stock and deliberately no plans to have any before current inventory was gone. We desperately needed a radio for a planned cruise.
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Old 26-12-2014, 16:22   #66
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

11 months ago, the original poster (Frank, "GeoPowers") posted about two new VHF-DSC transceivers with built-in AIS Receivers and built-in GPS receivers....the Icom M-506 and Standard/Horizon GX2200...

And, while AIS Receivers are not difficult to incorporate into a VHF-DSC Transceiver.....adding in a Class B AIS transponder isn't so easy...


{Although in the past year or so, some AIS transponders and some VHF-DSC radios DO work together, and Vesper AIS specifically mentions which VHF-DSC Radios will send a DSC call to an AIS target selected on their AIS display....
So, those desiring this functionality, it IS available and it DOES work....but they are not all in one box!!}


I have read every word of every post....but...
Since this original posting, there has been a good deal of discussion about "VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS" meaning including an AIS Class B Transponder, built-in to a VHF-DSC radio w/ built-in GPS...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Garbone View Post
Stopped by this since I am about to buy a class b AIS and one that was integrated in the VHF would be nice.
Some have speculated about the possible introduction of such a product, it's cost, size, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gi-Lo View Post
Now, I am in the market for a new Marine VHF, and this thread is the most recent thing I can find on the subject.
1. Are there still no VHF/AIS TRANSCEIVERS available since this thread began??
No...



And, while this might be technically possible (depending on your interpretation of the IMO and ITU rules and regs, etc.), the complexity and operational necessities may both simply be burdens that will not be overcome easily / cheaply....
Not to mention the cost and size of the unit, as well as the licensing / commissioning complexities, are certain to reduce the number of these "VHF-DSC-Class B AIS Transponder" units that will actually sell in the marketplace...

Please read what continouswave wrote here...he has laid things out pretty well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by continuouswave View Post
Assuming a VHF Marine Band DSC Class-D radio and an AIS Class-B transponder were combined, and assuming they used a common antenna, there are some technical problems:

--antenna would need to be broader in VSWR bandwidth than usual antennas

--for CLASS-B AIS, the transponder would need to transmit as often as every 30-seconds if moving at high speeds;

--when AIS was transmitting, the communication radio could not be transmitting on DSC or voice, or effectively receiving on DSC or voice

--when the communication radio was transmitting, the AIS could not be receiving or transmitting;

If we assume separate antennas for the communication radio and the AIS transponder, most of those problems go away, but one would need some physical separation between antennas in order to prevent the AIS transmitter from causing too much desensitizing of the communication receiver and vice versa.
For further details, please read on...

.

The ITU has detailed rules/regulations governing the AIS system and AIS transponders (both Class A and Class B), and if anyone wishes to read all 148 pages, here it is...
http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...2-I!!PDF-E.pdf

But, for those that just might want to see the pertinent highlights, here are just two pages...

Quote:
Class B automatic identification system using carrier sense time division multiple access technology

1 Definition

This Annex describes a Class B AIS using carrier-sense TDMA (CSTDMA) technology, subsequently referred to as Class B "CS". The CSTDMA technology requires that the Class B "CS" unit listens to the AIS network to determine if the network is free of activity and transmits only when the network is free. The Class B "CS" unit is also required to listen for reservation messages and comply with these reservations. This polite operation ensures that a Class B "CS" will be interoperable and will not interfere with equipment that complies with Annex 2.


2 General requirements

2.1 General

2.1.1 Capabilities of the Class B "CS" automatic identification system

The Class B "CS" AIS station should be inter-operable and compatible with Class A or other Class B shipborne mobile AIS stations or any other AIS station operating on the AIS VHF data link. In particular, Class B "CS" AIS stations should receive other stations, should be received by other stations and should not degrade the integrity of the AIS VHF data link.

Transmissions from Class B "CS" AIS stations should be organized in "time periods" that are synchronized to VDL activity.

The Class B "CS" AIS should only transmit if it has verified that the time period intended for transmission does not interfere with transmissions made by equipment complying with Annex
2. Transmissions of the Class B "CS" AIS should not exceed one nominal time period.

An AIS station intended to operate in receive-only mode should not be considered a Class B shipborne mobile AIS station.



2.1.2 Modes of operation

The system should be capable of operating in a number of modes as described below subject to the transmission of messages by a competent authority. It should not retransmit received messages.


2.1.2.1 Autonomous and continuous mode

An "autonomous and continuous" mode for operation in all areas transmitting Message 18 for scheduled position reporting and Message 24 for static data.
The Class B "CS" AIS should be able to receive and process messages at any time except during time periods of own transmission.


2.1.2.2 Assigned mode

An "assigned" mode for operation in an area subject to a competent authority responsible for traffic monitoring such that:
the reporting interval, silent mode and/or transceiver behaviour may be set remotely by that authority using group assignment by Message 23; or
time periods are reserved by Message 20 (see 3.18, Annex 8).



3 Performance requirements

3.1 Composition


The Class B "CS" AIS should comprise:

A communication processor, capable of operating in a part of the VHF maritime mobile service band, in support of short-range, VHF, applications.

At least one transmitter and three receiving processes, two for TDMA and one for DSC on channel 70. The DSC process may use the receiving resources on a time-share basis as described in 4.2.1.6. Outside the DSC receiving periods the two TDMA receiving processes should work independently and simultaneously on AIS channels A and B
13.

A means for automatic channel switching in the maritime mobile band (by Message 22 and DSC; Message 22 should have precedence). Manual channel switching should not be provided.

An internal GNSS position sensor, which provides a resolution of one ten thousandth of a minute of arc and uses the WGS-84 datum (see 3.3).


3.2 Operating frequency channels

The Class B "CS" AIS should operate at least on the frequency channels with 25 kHz bandwidth in the range from 161.500 MHz to 162.025 MHz of the RR Appendix 18 and in accordance with Recommendation ITU-R M.1084, Annex 4. The DSC receiving process should be tuned to channel 70.

The Class B "CS" AIS should automatically revert to receive-only mode on the channels AIS 1 and AIS 2 when commanded to operate at frequency channels outside its operating range and/or bandwidth.

3.3 Internal global navigation satellite system receiver for position reporting

The Class B "CS" AIS should have an internal GNSS receiver as source for position, COG, SOG.

The internal GNSS receiver may be capable of being differentially corrected, e.g. by evaluation of Message 17.

If the internal GNSS receiver is inoperative, the unit should not transmit Messages 18 and 24 unless interrogated by a base station
14.


So, if you could get a company to market such as device (see the details of what the AIS Transponder portion needs, in red above....in addition to what the VHF-DSC portion needs) there are other complications as well...

In addition to the necessity of having both ships station license / callsign, and valid operator's license, but also a valid MMSI# (in the US that means issued by the FCC, at a cost of about $210 every 10 years), and having this programmed in...as well as "type of vessel", etc...but also, here are other criteria / procedures that the individual boat owner would need to follow such as programming exactly where the GPS antenna is mounted (fore/aft and port/starboard position) just to use the darn thing, even if just to use it as a VHF....
Quote:
3.3.3 Reference point for reported position and overall dimensions of ship

FIGURE 41

M.1371-41 AB D C ABCD 9966 Bit 21-Bit 29 Number of bits Bit fields Distance (m) 0-511 511 = 511 m or greater
The dimension A should be in the direction of the transmitted heading information (bow)

Reference point of reported position not available, but dimensions of ship are available: A = C = 0 and B 0 and D 0.

Neither reference point of reported position nor dimensions of ship available; A = B = C = D = 0 (= default). For use in the message table, A = most significant field, D = least significant field.
Now, anyone contemplating installing a "VHF-DSC-Class B AIS Transponder" would probably be willing to go thru these procedures in order to commission the unit....
But, considering the cost and size of a unit such as this, as well as the complexity of keeping the operation of AIS transponder inside, separate from the VHF transceiver inside, so that the ITU regs are followed, and at the same time also allow the user to have the flexibility / versatility that they desire.....the unit would most probably be more complex that any of us may think, and certainly more costly that most here would think....
SO....

So, while it might be technically possible....and some might have prototypes / mock-ups in the lab....and some might even be thinking of marketing something like this....
In my opinion, it would be too costly and complex to sell easily and be reliable....(and again, in my opinion, a "made-in-China" non-ITU-approved unit, might be cheap enough, but not reliable / viable for most of us...)


Those of you that think I'm being pessimistic and/or thinking this is a lot of US regulation run amuck....understand that the rules/regs I quoted above are "international"....and as I wrote it might be possible, but unlikely...



I hope this helps sort out some confusions....

Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie


P.S. Further details are available from the ITU, IMO, USCG, etc...
AIS References

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Old 26-12-2014, 17:11   #67
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

I think. We will see an integrated system, the delay I suspect is the manufacturers waiting to see the size of the AIS transponder market.

I don't think the issue is cost or technical , all those can be quite easily overcome. It's more market related




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Old 26-12-2014, 17:23   #68
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Edit....
I thought that I wrote that I haven't read every of every post...which I haven't....but I left out the n't....so it read that I had read everything here....
Sorry, but I have not....



Dave,
I usually agree with you...and you may turn out to be correct...but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think. We will see an integrated system, the delay I suspect is the manufacturers waiting to see the size of the AIS transponder market.

I don't think the issue is cost or technical , all those can be quite easily overcome. It's more market related
But, as there are more than the technical and cost issues....such as the licensing needed, that many, many US boaters eschew, and the installation/"commissioning" issues that so many will not be aware of....I'm not as optimistic as you....

Just my opinion here...
And, I DO hope that you are right...we'll see...



Fair winds...

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Old 26-12-2014, 17:38   #69
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

I suspect the U.S. regulators could be convinced to allow AIS class B without a ship's station license. They already do that for DSC. The U.S. has significant input at ITU as do the Japanese radio makers. The ITU does not operate in a vacuum. If a thing makes sense technically and market wise the ITU will almost always go along.

I agree with Dave, it's a market size problem. What VHF radio company would not love to sell several thousand radios for $999.00 a piece? Answer: I think they all would kill to get that business.
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:50   #70
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Dan,
Yeah, I agree....but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
What VHF radio company would not love to sell several thousand radios for $999.00 a piece? Answer: I think they all would kill to get that business.
But, how many boat owners are going to buy one at $1000! ??? (or even at $500 - $600???)
I can't even convince many "cruisers" that a 20-yr-old non-DSC VHF radio should be replaced!!!
And, when I spent $550 each, on my M-602's, most thought I was nuts...

Again, I hope Dave and you are correct, and while someone may introduce this product....I'm not convinced, nor convinced that it would be an economic success...
Just my opinion....

Fair winds...

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Old 26-12-2014, 18:08   #71
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

The issue of mmsi and ship licenses is not the determining factor. There is some issues in combining a class D DSC VHF with an AIS that have to be overcome

To me it's all about market opportunity. There simply isn't enough takeup of AIS Transceivers to make it ecomically sensible to produce one integrated into a VHF.

It will happen in time
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Old 26-12-2014, 18:24   #72
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Dave, Dan, et al,
These are the main points here, for those looking to buy a new radio and/or an AIS transponder....
Buy them if you want/need them...
But, don't wait for an "all-in-one" unit...'cause it'll be a long wait...
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There is some issues in combining a class D DSC VHF with an AIS that have to be overcome

To me it's all about market opportunity. There simply isn't enough takeup of AIS Transceivers to make it ecomically sensible to produce one integrated into a VHF.


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Old 26-12-2014, 18:47   #73
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

I think sooner or later global legislation will force the installation of Class B AIS on the leisure market. We have already seen this in Singapore and now Thailand i'm sure there are other places. Why an all in one unit I don't know ! They are not that expensive for what they do. You can buy a stand alone Class B Transponder for around 300-400 USD Give it its own antenna and you have no more worries ! Safe sailing
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Old 26-12-2014, 19:29   #74
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Thumbs down Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

I sure hope it's later rather than sooner that we have global legislation telling us what to do.
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Old 27-12-2014, 03:47   #75
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Re: VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The issue of mmsi and ship licenses is not the determining factor. There is some issues in combining a class D DSC VHF with an AIS that have to be overcome

To me it's all about market opportunity. There simply isn't enough takeup of AIS Transceivers to make it ecomically sensible to produce one integrated into a VHF.
I agree on the MMSI issue. I'd bet less than 1% of US registered boats ever leave the country and those owners would be fine with a Boat US or Power Squadron free MMSI. The FCC process is a bit arcane but probably not a deterrent to anyone wanting an MMSI.

It may be true that there isn't enough market opportunity to make an all-in-one AIS transceiver VHF viable but then when you look at Vesper they are making products that go well beyond the capabilities of the typical "black box" AIS and which also come with a price premium of 1.5 to 2.5 times entry level units. Considering there's a market for people willing to pony up $1100 for a WatchMate Vision, I have a hard time seeing the type of device being discussed here as a commercial flop. Sure, many will balk at paying $1000 for a VHF radio, but the ease of having to connect only a 12v lead and a single antenna has the potential to win over a lot of fence sitters. Not having to deal with NMEA cabling has certainly been a major selling point for the SH units.
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