Too much RX noise on HAM setup

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Thanks. Trying another antenna wire is probably my only remaining thing.


I've run the radio off an 8D battery that has nothing else connected to it, and the noise is still there. I thought somebody might be able to say something like "only a moron goes with an inverted L" or something like that.

Sounds like you are experiencing radiated noise rather than conducted noise which is not a result of the electrical system but rather something running in the background. Should be easy enough to isolate the source.

Parenthetically, vertical antennas inherently 'pick up' more ambient nose than horizontal ones.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Sounds like you are experiencing radiated noise rather than conducted noise which is not a result of the electrical system but rather something running in the background. Should be easy enough to isolate the source.

Parenthetically, vertical antennas inherently 'pick up' more ambient nose than horizontal ones.

Think you are right on the money with that. We had the same setup on our ketch and had very few problems with it once we isolated the water maker, the generator(wind and prop) and several other appliances on board. We also had to experiment with grounding.(that was a biggie). Always best to get a real pro come aboard and see what can be done.

[btrayfors]

The inverted-L should be fine. I have a friend, WA0LSS, who has the same setup on his 60' ketch (mizzen shroud and jumper to the triatic). He feeds it with an UN-UN near the base of the shroud, and coax from there to a tuner near the rig. Works fine.

Be aware that when many electrical things are "OFF", they're not really off. This applies to anything with a "soft switch", where instead of a mechanical contact being made or broken an electrical circuit is used for the ON/OFF function.

I found that the hard way with a very noisy (S9 on 40 meters) Blue Sea Systems digital DC voltmeter on a panel near the rig. You could turn it off by pressing the button and the display would go off, but it wasn't really off. I found that by removing the voltage sense wire from the batteries. After that, it was an easy fix to install a toggle switch right on the meter bezel which switched off the sense wires. Now, a simple flip of that switch reduces onboard RFI from S9 to S1.....yes, 8 S-units difference.

I went on to test many other things onboard....none exceeded about S3-4 noise. I made a list of these and from time-to-time go back and check these. They vary with frequency, of course. I've found that many or most onboard noisemakers seem to create peak noise between about 7 and 9 mHz.

Be also aware that there are typically dozens of things on board these days which generate RF noise. You really need to track them all down by disconnecting wires from the ship's batteries and, where necessary, removing their batteries as well. Spend a whole morning on this and be methodical and take notes. You'll be rewarded, for sure!

BTW, do this BEFORE you go to the trouble and expense of fiddling any more with the ground system, antenna system, ferrites, etc.

Bill
WA6CCA

[ka4wja]

autumnbreeze,
I had forgotten all about this thread and your queries....sorry about that.
Since I never heard anything back from you about any of the many recommendations made, nor any results from any tests, this all faded into the background...

Not sure exactly what we can do to help, but since you're back here it appears you are now motivated to seek a solution, so I will give this another try...

Please see my very detailed comments and recommendations below (as well as earlier), but first some comments / request for clarifications from me...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

After a year of cruising, I wanted to touch on this again. I had a great time getting on the sonrisa net (75m / 3968khz, 1330z ??) in BOLA I don't know where "BOLA" is???), but that was mostly because everybody was within close range (how close?? 50 miles? 100 miles? 200 miles? 300 miles? etc.) and I could actually participate. We went up to Refugio (?? I thought this was in Tijuana, but I suspect not?) , and it was hard to copy those in the village (? what village? where is "the village"?) 40nm away.
If you cannot communicate 40nm on 75m, in early morning (within 30min to an hour of sunrise), then you have a serious problem...
{I assume you do not have any transmit problems, since you haven't mentioned any?? so, we are all assuming that your transmit signal is copied perfectly fine by other stations within range....200 - 300 miles in early morning on 75m, signals should be quite strong...}

My antenna goes up a stay on the mizzen, then jumps across to the triatic and goes to the main mast.
This vertical / quasi inverted-L, should be a fine antenna on a boat...
If we knew the actual length, we could give you some specifics....especially if you tell us how long the vertical section and how long the triatic section??
(by the way, a true "inverted-L" can be designed with the high current point in whatever section you desire, for the radiation pattern you desire....but on our boats, we have the antennas that we have, because they are sailboats, and the "antenna" needs to fit the boat and what we have for rigging/masts... )

Could it be that this horizontalish section is picking up a lot of spurious undesirable signals?
No!
I suspect your entire antenna is picking up all the signals that are there....the desired radio signals, as well as the noise....and this is completely normal!
An antenna cannot discriminate whether the signals it receives are the "desired" signals or "undesired"....
(depending on the antenna pattern, some antennas pick up more local noise, and some can pick up less local noise....but, these are almost always big, directional, etc. and impractical on any small sailboat, so no need to delve into this... )

I'm still frustrated that my HF radio setup sucks.
If you look back 10 months or so, you'll see that all the information you need to run some tests is right here for you....
You do NOT need any special tools, equipment, nor meters....nothing at all to "buy", nothing/nobody to spend any money on...just you, your radio, and your time...
If you now have the desire to do these tests, that's great....and I will give you some details and some step-by-step instructions, but I will not spend much more time on this if you are unwilling to do these tests, and I suspect neither will others that are experienced....(you will get a lot of "hey, try this" and/or "you need to buy this" and/or "that's nothing, I fixed mine with this", etc. etc.....but few with any actual experience will be willing to help if you are not willing to do the tests, measure things, write down everything, report back everything, and wait until someone experienced gives you feedback/direction and can provide you with some solutions...

Please understand that you may find that simply moving some wiring, and/or shielding some device, and/or change some wiring, and/or choke off some radiated RFI, and/or use different radio settings, etc. etc. etc...to solve your entire problem...
But, without doing any testing, etc., it's impossible for us to tell you what to do in any specific way...
{autumnbreeze, PLEASE understand that I'm not writing any of this to brag, but rather to illustrate the fact that no matter how much "experience" someone has, it all matters not if they don't have any specific information!!
(meaning, I can't be of any more help, if I don't have any more info..)
I started in marine HF comms in the early 70's...I've studied antenna system design and radiowave propagation since then...and taught seminars and classes on these subjects for 35 years...I've dealt with many HF comm issues (marine and ham, at sea and on shore), designed, assembled, and operated stations in various locations, using a wide range of equipment/antennas, etc..
And, one truism that is a rather recent (last 10 years) change in "fact"...and that is all the horrible RFI that is generated by oh so much in our lives these days!!

If you think I'm overstating this, please have a look at the tests / reports for SARSAT-COSPAS (you know, the folks that run the worldwide EPIRB network), and you'll find that in Asia and Europe the 406mhz terrestrial "background noise" is 10db to 20db HIGHER than 10 - 20 years ago, due to the increased RFI from both consumer and commercial electronic equipment (their report concludes that much of this equipment is made in Asia, without any real "testing" done, just faux reports generated that allow these devices to be sold in EU, etc., as well as every where in Asia)...
And, this increase in background noise IS currently effecting the signal to noise ratio of satellite reception of EPIRB's / PLB's, meaning some distress alerts are not getting thru clean / clear, and/or taking longer to get the distress alert thru...
(further, INMARSAT has an entire engineering group working on changes in satellite design and ground equipment requirements, that are studying these increases in terrestrial background noise levels....and understand that while INMARSAT and Iridium are on L-Band (1.5Ghz) and EPIRB's are on 406mhz, but the increases of noise on lower freqs are even larger!!)


I've gotten pretty good at sending and receiving data
I suspect that the forward-error-correction, and repeat requests, that are built-in to the digital comm protocols are responsible for much of this success, versus the lack of success on Voice SSB Comms??

, but the sonrisa net needs net controllers and I'd like to volunteer, but I'd have to get relays for everything so I am hesitant.
Assume your transmit signal is getting thru fine, but your reception is seriously hindered??
Please clarify??

Any other advice?
I, and others, gave you a great deal of advice, recommendations, many months (10 months or more) ago....but, we never heard anything back from you...
So, I'm trying again here...
Please see details below..

I'm leary of going up the mizzen and disconnecting the triatic... because I will probably never be able to re-attach it as good as the pro who did it in the first place.
Assuming the connection(s) are clean and tight, no corrosion, then there is NO need to do this...
No need to worry about your antenna at all, but it would be nice to know the exact lengths of the different sections...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Thanks. Trying another antenna wire is probably my only remaining thing.
Assuming the connection(s) are clean and tight, no corrosion, then there is NO need to do this...
No need to worry about your antenna at all, but it would be nice to know the exact lengths of the different sections...

Disconnecting my battery monitor, or battery management system, is not an option.
It seems this is a big issue you??
But, as I asked almost a year ago....is there some reason that you cannot completely disconnect the entire LifePo system, the entire BMS system??? Disconnect everything, unplug everything, etc...just like when it was new and first delivered (sitting on the deck or cabin sole, before you installed it and hooked it up)???
The entire length of the tests would be less than an hour, and add whatever time it takes you to completely disconnect everything, and reconnect everything...and your boat would be without any electrical power (except for your one 8D lead-acid battery, for powering only the radio) for just an hour or two....and unless you have some medical equipment that needs to run 24/7, I cannot understand how this hour or two of no electrical power would be detrimental to you, your boat, nor your life???

I have been on too many boats that have way more stuff on than I do and don't have these problems,
Your own words here prove the fallacy of the "myth", that boats with lots of stuff have lots of RFI problems....
The fact is borne out by your own experiences, there are many boats with lots of stuff on board that don't have RFI issues, and many boats with few things on-board that do have RFI issues...and this is all because of WHAT they have on-board and on WHAT they've done (or not done) to mitigate/reduce/eliminate whatever RFI they have...

so I have to hope it's an antenna issue.
Antennas do NOT cause RFI...
{unless you have corroded connections, creating a "semi-conductor", that are excited/energized by some other energy, an antenna cannot cause RFI...
BTW, this is the reason that we do NOT use open braid as a "grounding conductor" in the RF world!! An open braid, especially a bare copper one, has hundreds or 1000's of small connections that "make and break" even without corrosion....but, once corroded, will cause all manners of problems, I've personally seen a short 12" long piece of open braid used for a ground connection, cause a 10 - 20db increase in background noise level, replaced it with a short copper strap, and problem went away, forever!
So, while antennas do NOT cause RFI.....and although it is rare, bad/corroded connections can!}


I've run the radio off an 8D battery that has nothing else connected to it, and the noise is still there.
It isn't what is powering your radio (or at least it doesn't appear to be), as this would be conducted noise...and conducted RFI is rare...

We still do NOT know what noise you have!
You haven't investigated and reported to us what noise you have??
We are all assuming you have on-board RFI?? But, we are just assuming this, because you haven't tested and reported back...

So, assuming it is RFI....It is the noise radiated by something that is picked-up by your antenna...
What "something"?? (I suspect the LifePo System and the BMS, but cannot be sure, as you've not tested any of that...also possible is a computer, USB wiring, computer power supply, cell phone charger, solar charge controllers, inverters, digital panel meters, battery-powered digital clocks, etc. etc. etc...)
But, you can very easily test to be sure it is "radiated noise" versus "conducted noise", just unplug the antenna coax at the back of the radio, if the noise disappears (or is seriously reduced), then it is radiated noise....if not, then it's getting into the radio some other way (either conducted, or via other wiring connecting to the radio)

I thought somebody might be able to say something like "only a moron goes with an inverted L" or something like that.
In general, there's nothing wrong with an "inverted-L"....and I don't see any morons here...
But, I do see you as unwilling to participate in your own troubleshooting and solutions....
Sorry, not trying to offend....just being honest.

Here are some very detailed comments / recommendations:
autumnbreeze,
As I wrote above....I had forgotten all about this thread and your queries...
Since I never heard anything back from you about any of the many recommendations made, nor any results from any tests, this all faded away...

But, since I never "unsubscribed" from the thread, I got an e-mail notifying me of a new posting here...so here we are all again...

I'm not sure if you will actually read all of this, and I'm fairly certain you will not believe all of this, nor will you heed the advice/recommendations given by me and others here....but, I'm going to try one last time (as Bill, btrayfors has as well) and might be a bit of a different tack??
(But, I will not spend much time on this if you are unwilling to participate in your own problem solving...)

So here goes...

1) Again, antennas do NOT create noise, do NOT cause noise....(unless there are corroded connections that create a "semi-conductor" and these are excited by some other energy, an antenna itself does not and cannot create or cause noise...period...)


2) You may hear some uninformed folks that talk of one antenna being "quieter" than another....and, yes, when comparing some various designs this can be true....BUT...

But, this is primarily because of one antenna's polarization, pattern (both azimuthal and elevation), and directivity, versus another antenna's....NOT because one is somehow "quieter"....
And, yes of course some antennas that are less efficient / lossier, will also seem "quieter", because they pick up less of everything, noise and desired signals...
{Please note that I've heard seasoned hams with decades of experience spout off the nonsense about "quieter" antennas, without anyone having a clue as to why/how this is possible....so, when you read my words here and think "what a load of whooey, this flies in the face of everything everyone else says"....please know that all of this is backed-up with both 100 years of mathematical / scientific facts and my personal 4 decades of experience....but, whatever the case, please at least take a moment and give it the benefit of the doubt...}


3) Before we get to specifics about antennas (I've spent ~ 40 years studying, designing, and building antennas), remember we still do NOT know what "noise" you have....nor do we know what your noise levels are...
Nor do we know if you've mitigated the "noise" by making sure you are NOT using the radio's pre-amp, making sure you ARE using the radio's attenuator, making sure you are not using the noise blanker unless you have some "impulse noise", and making sure you are not allowing any of the radio's "noise reduction" features to complicate matters by adding distortion products that reduce intelligibility / reduce data thru-put???

Please understand that since we don't know any of the above, any advice / recommendation you get here is going to be generic...
If you wish to investigate the "noise" issue you have, in any specific way (and actually solve it), you're going to need to figure all of this out and answer all of these questions....
(but, until then....)

a) If you're receiving lots of "band noise" (natural noise), antenna choice and proper radio settings/operation CAN make a difference....as can a good set of communications-grade headphones (NOT nosie-cancelling, nor fancy music headphones)...

b) But, if you're receiving mostly man-made noise (RFI), then your antenna choice will have almost no effect at all!!!
And, you have two choices:
--- Live with it...
--- Figure out where it is coming from, and reduce/eliminate it, and/or shield it, and/or choke it, etc. etc...


So, I think you now see why it is so important to know what noise you have??
And, why I spent so much of my time attempting to get you to test / investigate this, to determine what noise you have???
{But, for some reason, for just an hour or so of testing, you were unwilling to disconnect / completely unplug all LifePo systems, Battery Maintenance System, etc., turn off and disconnect power from everything, no computers, no smart phones, no tablets, no chargers, no solar, etc., and have absolutely nothing on-board (or within 1/4 to 1/2 mile) running at all...do some actual scientific testing, and report results...
Yes, this would require you to make some detailed measurements using your radio, and using the various settings, etc....but it does not cost any money, and does not require any special equipment / tools / meters, etc....just you, your radio, and your time...
But, without knowing what noise you have and what levels you have at multiple freqs and at various settings of the radio, we cannot tell you what to do...}


4) You can use an antenna with different polarization and pattern to receive more of the desired signals from a certain area, and perhaps less noise....

And, this is a VERY large factor in determining antenna choice...
Actually, when I'm asked "what antenna is best", my usual answer causes frustration to the questioner, because my response are questions (where do you wish to communicate to?? what time of day / time of year?? what band/freqs do you wish to use?? what modes?? etc.)
Without knowing those, there is no way to answer which antenna is best...

In your situation, I'm not sure exactly what distances you are attempting to communicate, nor on what freqs, nor what times of day, etc....
(Since I'm an Atlantic, Med, and Caribbean sailor, I do not know what BOLA is??? nor do I know where "the village" is?? and I thought Refugio was near Tijuana??)
So, I can only give you some generic info, based on what I know about the Sea of Cortez and various cruisers I know there...
Sorry, but if you could give some more specific info, the more specific answers you might get...

In general, most Sea of Cotez HF comms take place within 300 miles??
And, although early morning you can use 3.9/4mhz, and both groundwave over sea water and skywave (NVIS) will be used....if you can wait until an hour (or 1.5 to 2 hours) after sunrise, you'd have better luck on a higher freq of 6mhz to 7mhz to 8mhz (lower freqs earlier, higher freqs later)

But, bottom line is...
If you cannot communicate 40nm on 3.9nhz, in early morning, you've got a serious problem on-board!!
You never mentioned any issue with transmit, so I'm assuming all is well with YOUR signal (everyone hears you fine), and this right there will tell you the problem is NOT your antenna (nor ground system, unless you've used some copper braid somewhere???)!!
Signals on 3.9mhz in early morning, just after sunrise should be quite strong and a very easy copy for hundreds of miles....it's only a few hours later (as D-layer absorption increases) that signals get weaker, and by midday you're range is shorter, possibly only groundwave...
If you cannot usually hear stations 40nm away within 30min to 60min of sunrise on 3.9mhz, you have some serious noise issues...

And, autumnbreeze, please understand that this has nothing at all to do with "how much stuff" someone has on-board, it can take only one small device that radiates significant RFI, to wipe out a lot of HF comms....(I've seen fancy panel-mounted digital volt meters, wipe out all but the strongest local radio signals....and a simple dc-dc converter / 12vdc cell-phone charger and/or laptop power supply, do the same...)
About 2 years ago, I had a friend on a sistership to my Annie Laurie, that couldn't hear anything on 12.359mhz, but then told me "I got 6 bars of signal...how come I can't hear anything?" he was 300 miles from me, I talking to him on the phone to troubleshoot this....and when he unplugged his wi-fi router on-board, his "signals went to zero" and he "heard some random static" (which was completely natural), in the next few minutes we hung up the phone, and we talked on the radio (both 12mhz and 8mhz) for the next hour, with strong, solid signals....

The more I write, the more I realize this is Deja Vu....and I'm thinking this might be a waste of time....but, at least I've tried.


BTW, unless you have a rather large ketch / schooner, most of us are limited to vertical antennas (or a combination of vertical and sloping wire, a quasi inverted-L) for the lower bands....so, there's no need to fret over what antenna would be best....'cause you got what fits on your boat, and you make it the best it can be...
If some can rig an inverted-v for 75m / 3.9mhz, they may find noise level reduced and signals increased for the short/regional paths from 100 - 300 miles....but, this is a very big antenna that cannot fit on the average sized cruising boat, not even 65 footers will be able to fit it....(but for 40m, this is a great antenna for daytime regional comms..)
So, again....no need to fret about antenna choice....you got what you got, you need to find your noise sources and reduce/eliminate them, etc..


Please read Bill's recent post here....heed his words as well..

Originally Posted by btrayfors

The inverted-L should be fine.

Be aware that when many electrical things are "OFF", they're not really off. This applies to anything with a "soft switch", where instead of a mechanical contact being made or broken an electrical circuit is used for the ON/OFF function.

I found that the hard way with a very noisy (S9 on 40 meters) Blue Sea Systems digital DC voltmeter on a panel near the rig. You could turn it off by pressing the button and the display would go off, but it wasn't really off. I found that by removing the voltage sense wire from the batteries. After that, it was an easy fix to install a toggle switch right on the meter bezel which switched off the sense wires. Now, a simple flip of that switch reduces onboard RFI from S9 to S1.....yes, 8 S-units difference.

I went on to test many other things onboard....none exceeded about S3-4 noise. I made a list of these and from time-to-time go back and check these. They vary with frequency, of course. I've found that many or most onboard noisemakers seem to create peak noise between about 7 and 9 mHz.

Be also aware that there are typically dozens of things on board these days which generate RF noise. You really need to track them all down by disconnecting wires from the ship's batteries and, where necessary, removing their batteries as well. Spend a whole morning on this and be methodical and take notes. You'll be rewarded, for sure!

BTW, do this BEFORE you go to the trouble and expense of fiddling any more with the ground system, antenna system, ferrites, etc.

Bill
WA6CCA

Well, I do hope this helps....'cause it's all I got...

If you want more, you're going to have to do the testing (let me know, and I will provide you with the steps / details, but I will not spend more time on this unless you're willing...)

Have fun and Fair winds..

John



~~~~~~~~~~~
And, FYI....here is what I wrote last December:
Autumnbreeze,
As we get more info in bits and dribbles, things are starting to make sense...

1) You need to determine what noises you are receiving / hearing....
Use your ears....do NOT try to use a "waterfall display"...

Trying to use a computer / waterfall display to track down RFI is going to be a very frustrating effort...and likely futile!
I did not see anyone recommend that at all..
And, to the contrary, I have been recommending that you listen to your radio, after having seen/heard the various RF noises (natural and man-made) that are common on the videos....and then tell us what you are hearing!



2) If some (or most) of the noise you are hearing is man-made RFI, you need to determine WHERE it comes from...

And, finding out "where" might involve shutting-down and disconnecting the BMS completely....just as a test....
As well as shutting off any other ancillary devices, especially inverter controls, digital metering, battery monitors, etc...(and that is going to includes whatever "Victron" equipment you're referring to!)
Again, this is for testing / evaluating things, not as a SOP for when you wish to use the radio!!!

Understand that while connecting your IC-7200 to an 8D battery (lead-acid, I assume) might be helpful, in this testing/troubleshooting phase, keeping the LiFePo BMS up and running, as well as this "Victron", etc. is just causing you to chase your tail!!! 'cause they're still "on" and can still be causing RFI and radiating it quite a ways....

When you write that everything is disconnected / off, and it isn't...this is keeping you from finding any RFI...

{BTW, I still am unsure if you do have on-board RFI....you've never told us what it sounds like, what bands/freqs it is on, how wide it is, how its strength varies across the bands/freqs, etc. etc. etc....nor, whether this is RFI from your BMS and/or "Victron", etc....
Or, perhaps you are just listening to natural band noise / atmospheric noise???
we still don't know...}



3) Also, PLEASE do not waste your money with noise cancelling filters, tuners, phase cancellers, etc....the MFJ units are practically useless.....(although DX Engineering builds a great unit, the NCC-1, at ~ $600....even it would be hard pressed to be of much help to you)
http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-ncc-1
MFJ-1025/1026
These will not help you out much....


You must determine what noise you have, and where it is coming from!!
Only then, can we make recommendations on what the solutions are...




4) As for specifics....
Oh goodness, you never told us that you had LiFePo batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) running all the time....
You mentioned that you had EVERYTHING off / disconnected, and I assumed that meant everything....
But, now it appears not to be the case...
As you have a BMS and a "Victron"(?)...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27
Attached is a pic of the BMS on the lifepo4 battery. No way I'm messing with it... if it's a problem I'll need to deal with it, I'm not going to be disconnecting it if I need to use the radio.

Same with the Victron... if I disconnect it it loses the state of the battery.

If you have on-board RFI, these need to be completely powered down / disconnected, for testing / troubleshooting purposes....
We need to determine what noises you are receiving....and you may need to completely power-down / disconnect these devices, in order to make this determination!!






5) I'm a bit confused by this:

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27
The galvonic isolator, I could put a switch on it. It's irritating that they don't make these only turn on if your plugged in to AC power.

As a galvanic isolator is just some big diodes...and if you're not on shore power it won't have any electricity to it at all, and cannot possibly cause you any receive RFI....
You are testing the radio without being connected to shore power, yes??? (I know you are, when you are out in the boonies, but just unplug when testing at the dock!)




6) Just a few comments here...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27
I've got the radio wired to a bus bar that's connected to the + side of the lifepo4 cell, and the main negative bus bar, 12 awg wire with fuses on both.
You should be connecting directly to the batteries....and I'd rather you connect to a lead-acid battery (such as your other 8D lead-acid or starter battery)...
12 ga is a bit light for the 25 amps that the radio will draw....
I've got the starter battery and a 8D that I'm not using, so this morning I'm going to rewire the radio to the 8D.


I need to figure out how to charge it then, I've got an echo charger I could use but I'd have to have a kill switch on it, otherwise it would just suck and suck on the lifepo4, and with my luck it would probably generate RFI as well.
Autumnbreeze, PLEASE stop...
You are moving too fast and overthinking things...

Hook the radio to another battery (8D, etc.), and power-down/disconnect the BMS and "Victron"....
And, then do some tests....
Do NOT worry about "charging" anything right now....besides it is the "chargers" / "inverters" / etc. that cause much of the on-board RFI!!!


It's probably 4' to the 8D and 6' to the lifepo4 to the radio.

I may try another one versus the other test this morning... maybe I can use the waterfall display in RMS Express to measure the RFI.
Please take this rather blunt advice in a friendly way!!
Forget the "waterfall display".....what noise do you have???
Where are these noises coming from???
Until you answer those questions, there is no need to measure anything, waterfalling or not

7) A few other points....
--- As I wrote earlier, there is nothing wrong with a good RF power / SWR meter on-board (especially one permanently mounted so you can always see what's going on with your radio / antenna system), and the "cross-needle" ones are easy to use at a glance....I prefer Daiwa....(MFJ is a rather inferior product)
BUT....
But, understand that no matter what meter you get, it will be of NO HELP at all here with these issues...


---- I've been a member of eham for > a decade....and while the q&a / forums have many of us with a wealth of knowledge, please don't make purchase decisions / evaluate equipment based on "product reviews" there!!!
Some of the older gear, reviewed many years ago, have some experienced wisdom in some of their reviews....but, unfortunately many of the modern reviews / recent reviews are done by folks with little to compare things with...they are well-intentioned, but not a real good indication of the real product...


--- Alan, K0BG's site on mobile HF operation is great, and even I have used it for a reference before....but, remember there are a lot more things on-board our boats that cars don't have...
Your best source for RFI info / advice is:
The Sailmail Primer...
The SSCA...
The SSCA Disc Boards...
The CCA...
And, of course here on CF...
(oh, and my youtube videos...



8) Finally, I see that you've got some software that is working for you....
That's great!!!
But, I'm still not clear what noises you are receiving???
(and neither the waterfall display, nor your other software, is going to help you with that answer...)
So, when you get a chance, let us know!



Fair winds..

John

[autumnbreeze27]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that up.

I'm not going to try to edit that beast, so here's some comments to answer some of the questions, in somewhat the right order

BOLA = Bahia De Los Angeles, or Bay Of LA (BOLA), also known as the village when you are near it. It's in the northern part of the sea of cortez, south of San Felipe.
Distance from Refugio to BOLA is about 40nm
Distance from our boat to the fleet when my radio worked great was 0.25nm to 10nm
Sonrisa net is 3968 at dawn
Your right on the data transfers, they are usually slow, and a lot of times I get stepped or otherwise lose my connection during a transfer (very frustrating). But at least I know how propogation works so I'm not trying the wrong frequencies at the wrong times. I have the most luck on the 7000 freqs in the evenings... i usually have a hard time with the lower freqs 3000-4000 range no matter what.
Disconnectng the lifepo4 - the bms modules look like little keychain car alarm fobs... with a little red led that blinks occasionally. they are hard wired to the cells. there is no off button, I would have to disassemble the battery to kill the power to them, and I am not going to do that. I can disconnect the battery from the house, but that doesn't shut off the bms. I have a victron battery monitor. I can't disconnect that either. If I disconnect it, it will not have any idea what my battery level is, and I'd have to re-sync it, which is not easy when you are not at a dock.

I've tried totally shutting the boat down. Nothing on but the BMS, and the victron. I've figured out what makes noise, the compressors for the fridge/freezer, the solar panels, fans, etc. Now I wait for night, so the solar panels are quiet, and turn off the fridge/freezer. It's hot, so I usually leave the fans on until I get a response (when doing data), and then I turn them off. Sometimes that gives me a speed boost, but not always. Lately though I've been taking the notebook into the cockpit, using a USB extension cord. I've got 3 chokes on both ends of the extension, all triple wrapped, and good ones bought from hro. I've got chokes to spare, everything has chokes on it.

Maybe I have a hard time describing noise in terms that others can understand. When I'm on the sonrisa net in the morning, I don't have a computer on, so it's on from that. When I got on when I was 40nm away, it was hard to understand people talking. I would call them lost in the weeds. They are light and if I boost the signal, crank the volume, etc, the static gets louder too, hence I am frustrated. It seems like if I'm in ground wave range it's good, otherwise it sucks.

I've got a KISS antenna, which I know you hate, but a lot of other boats have them, and don't have the same problem.

I can try running a long wire, and I can try making a ground out of tinfoil and throwing it over the side in the saltwater. I did this before, back when I was in a marina in long beach, and I never saw a significant difference between that, and the KISS/rigging antenna.

I'll work on taking lots of pictures of everything that would be interesting and posting it, and maybe something will stand out to somebody.

Thanks again!

[ka4wja]

autumnbreeze,
1) First off, you're welcome!

When you started this thread last December, I had hoped we'd have you working in no time...but we got only bits and pieces of info and a refusal by you to provide further info and do some tests...so, there is little more for us to do...


2) Secondly, do not worry about your antenna!
There is NO reason to rig another wire antenna (unless you have corrosion / connection issues with your current one)

And, while I understand some recommending that you actually obtain a good RF ground (to shunt noise to), this can sometimes work in conjunction with a lot of other RFI mitigation....but, many times it is also the offending device that would need the RF ground, to shunt its RFI energy to!!
(but, usually "running foil over the side" is just an exercise in futility, and sends you down a rather frustrating path!)

Please save yourself the effort and frustration...and just tell us how long your existing antenna is?? How long is the vertical stay section (from tuner output to top), and how long is the triatic piece??
(that way we might be able to be of some help....but, I suspect that the lengths are 30' - 40' for the vertical section and 15' - 20' for the triatic section??)

As for the "KISS" ground....the only reason I eschew it is because anyone can build one that works as good or better in < 5 minutes for free (or for < $5)....and I have mentioned this 100's of times....and secondarily it is sold to unsuspecting sailors who don't know what they are buying....
If you actually read my words on the subject you will see this quite clearly....and I'm a bit confused by your words saying that I hate the KISS...it just does not do what the manufacturer says it does, and they charge you $150 for something worth $5!
So, to be clear, I have not told you that the KISS is your problem, and do not understand why you bring that up??

But, regardless....the problem you have (as best as I can determine, with the tiny amount of info you provide) is:
a) Unknown received noise of some kind...that is "louder" than most signals...(and even now, 10 months into this, we still don't know if this is "natural" noise, or RFI)
b) Unknown radio settings...

If we cannot get you to tell us the answers to those two things (what the noise is, and what your radio settings are), then there is little that anyone can do....
But, certainly it is not your antenna!! (unless of course, as I wrote above, you have corroded or bad antenna connections)


3) Third, now that I know where you are at, and what distances you're talking about....boy oh boy, do you have some real problems there, mate...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

BOLA = Bahia De Los Angeles, or Bay Of LA (BOLA), also known as the village when you are near it. It's in the northern part of the sea of cortez, south of San Felipe.
Distance from Refugio to BOLA is about 40nm
Distance from our boat to the fleet when my radio worked great was 0.25nm to 10nm
Sonrisa net is 3968 at dawn

You were using HF radio to talk 1/4 mile to 10 miles??
{That's usually what VHF is for, but no worries...I use 75m to talk to friends on shore that are 15 to 100 miles away, and we could use VHF (and/or VHF repeater), but choose 75m, too!}
But, onto the issue at hand...

Before sunrise, I regularly communicate 1000's of miles on 75m, and at sunrise this can be quite easy....and even 1/2 hour to an hour after sunrise, signals out a few hundred miles are quite strong!!
There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to communicate 40 miles, on 75m...especially over sea water!!

Autumnbreeze, you still haven't confirmed that your transmit signal is good?? Everyone hears you just fine???
If you cannot hear stations from as close as 40 miles, I'm wondering if you DO have a serious problem with radio / tuner / antenna connection / etc...
I'm fairly sure you do have the proper tuner for this....and Icom AT-130 / AT-140 / AH-4 / etc???
And, a failure of the AH-4 tuner is rare, but possible...as is an issue with the IC-7200...

I just cannot fathom how you cannot communicate 40 miles, on 75m, at sunrise???
If your transmit signal is good, you've got a lot of serious noise....if your transmit signal is not getting thru, then you may have some serious radio and/or tuner problems....
So...
So, you really need to advise us, can other stations hear you well 200 - 300 miles away (even if it takes a couple relays for you to get the sigbnal reports back)???



4) Fourth...as I just wrote above, we don't know what noise you have, nor how you are using the radio???
Are you willing to tell us?? (if not, there's nothing I can do...sorry...but I do wish you luck)

Originally Posted by ka4wja

....Nor do we know if you've mitigated the "noise" by making sure you are NOT using the radio's pre-amp, making sure you ARE using the radio's attenuator, and adjusting the RF Gain down as needed, making sure you are not using the noise blanker unless you have some "impulse noise", and making sure you are not allowing any of the radio's "noise reduction" features to complicate matters by adding distortion products that reduce intelligibility / reduce data thru-put???

Please understand that since we don't know any of the above, any advice / recommendation you get here is going to be generic...
If you wish to investigate the "noise" issue you have, in any specific way (and actually solve it), you're going to need to figure all of this out and answer all of these questions....
(but, until then....)

a) If you're receiving lots of "band noise" (natural noise), antenna choice and proper radio settings/operation CAN make a difference....as can a good set of communications-grade headphones (NOT nosie-cancelling, nor fancy music headphones)...

b) But, if you're receiving mostly man-made noise (RFI), then your antenna choice will have almost no effect at all!!!
And, you have two choices:
--- Live with it...
--- Figure out where it is coming from, and reduce/eliminate it, and/or shield it, and/or choke it, etc. etc...


So, I think you now see why it is so important to know what noise you have??
And, why I spent so much of my time attempting to get you to test / investigate this, to determine what noise you have???

--- Confirm that you are NOT using the radio's pre-amp?? (you should NEVER use the pre-amp on any freqs below 10 to 12mhz, and almost NEVER on any HF freq)
--- Confirm that you ARE using the radio's attenuator?? (usually used on all freqs below 10 - 12mhz, and especially when noise levels are high)
--- Confirm that you are adjusting the RF Gain down as needed??
--- Confirm that you are NOT using a noise blanker?? (usually only effective on "impulse" / ignition-type noise, and usually causes increased distortion and intelligibility issues)
--- Confirm that you are not using the various "noise reduction" features of the 7200 that can cause significant distortions and intelligibility issues?? (although marketing hype can cause many to be psychologically influenced into thinking that these "must work", many times they make matter worse....the human brain, when well trained, is one of the best "filters" and "noise reducer" there is....use headphones and your brain, and you'll usually be much better off!)



5) Fifth....
You have a battery system (LifePO) and BMS that are well known to cause RFI, but refuse to investigate this???
You also tell of a Victron battery monitor (which might also be a source of RFI), but refuse to investigate this either??
You mention interference from your solar controllers?? But, why is this??
This is very easy to investigate and eliminate....is there some reason for not doing this??

It would take no more than an hour or two of time, requires no special tools, no special equipment, no meters to buy, etc....just you, your hands / ears / eyes, and your radio, as I just wrote above...

Originally Posted by ka4wja

....{But, for some reason, for just an hour or so of testing, you were unwilling to disconnect / completely unplug all LifePo systems, Battery Maintenance System, etc., turn off and disconnect power from everything, no battery monitor, no computers, no smart phones, no tablets, no chargers, no solar, etc., and have absolutely nothing on-board (or within 1/4 to 1/2 mile) running at all...do some actual scientific testing, and report results...
Yes, this would require you to make some detailed measurements using your radio, and using the various settings, etc....but it does not cost any money, and does not require any special equipment / tools / meters, etc....just you, your radio, and your time...
But, without knowing what noise you have and what levels you have at multiple freqs and at various settings of the radio, we cannot tell you what to do...}

So, I wish you luck, but I'm afraid there is not much more that I can do.




6) BTW, you mention that you know how propagation works, but I get the feeling that you really do not...
This isn't an insult, as there is no reason to believe that everyone should know this, but I just wanted you to be aware that there is a LOT to HF radiowave propagation, and I see little evidence that you've studied this...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Your right on the data transfers, they are usually slow, and a lot of times I get stepped or otherwise lose my connection during a transfer (very frustrating). But at least I know how propogation works so I'm not trying the wrong frequencies at the wrong times. I have the most luck on the 7000 freqs in the evenings... i usually have a hard time with the lower freqs 3000-4000 range no matter what.

I assume you're talking about attempting to connect to Winlink and I'm wondering why are you limiting yourself to these lower freqs??
30m and 20m are open daytimes, and 30m in evenings is a great band...much lower natural noise on these bands, and if they don't work well, then try 40m...
The lower the freq, the more natural noise / band noise you have (remember that in evenings and at night you have lots of natural noise on the lower bands from distant T-Storms), and most RFI is strongest on lower freqs as well, so you should always try the higher freqs first, always....always use the highest freq that sustains the communications, this gives the lowest absorption, strongest signals, and least noise...of course you can go too high, past the MUF, and you get nothing...
If you wish to read more about this, there are plenty of references right here in CF, etc...not the least of which is a posting I made yesterday!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lp-174036.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2235804




7) As for the "noise", we need to know how you are using the radio / what are your radio settings??
Please see above for all the details....

a) --- Confirm that you are NOT using the radio's pre-amp?? Use the "P. AMP" button.. (you should NEVER use the pre-amp on any freqs below 10 to 12mhz, and almost NEVER on any HF freq)
b) --- Confirm that you ARE using the radio's attenuator?? Use the "P. AMP" button..
(usually used on all freqs below 10 - 12mhz, and especially when noise levels are high)
c) --- Confirm that you are adjusting the RF Gain down as needed?? (make sure that you have the RF Gain / Squelch settings, set correctly in the set menu, thereby allowing you to adjust the RF Gain down???)
d) --- Confirm that you have selected AGC fast as needed??
e) --- Confirm that you are NOT using a noise blanker?? (usually only effective on "impulse" / ignition-type noise, and usually causes increased distortion and intelligibility issues)
f) --- Confirm that you are not using the various "noise reduction" features of the 7200 that can cause significant distortions and intelligibility issues?? (although marketing hype can cause many to be psychologically influenced into thinking that these "must work", many times they make matter worse....the human brain, when well trained, is one of the best "filters" and "noise reducer" there is...)
g) --- use headphones and your brain, and you'll usually be much better off!
I mentioned these settings last December, but just like everything else mentioned here, we don't have the details....only a few bits and pieces...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Maybe I have a hard time describing noise in terms that others can understand. When I'm on the sonrisa net in the morning, I don't have a computer on, so it's on from that. When I got on when I was 40nm away, it was hard to understand people talking. I would call them lost in the weeds. They are light and if I boost the signal, crank the volume, etc, the static gets louder too, hence I am frustrated. It seems like if I'm in ground wave range it's good, otherwise it sucks.

It might be coming clear now, why so many new to HF comms, should not buy complicated radios, and why marine HF radios are much easier to use / operate!!
--- Once you confirm all the above settings, then telling us what signal levels and noise levels you have will be very helpful...
--- What type of noise do you have??
--- Is it pulsing??
--- Is it constant??
--- Does it buzz??
--- Does it whine??
--- Is wideband, or narrow band noise??
--- Does it move around?? or stay in one section of the band??

Now, while all of that is important, unless you're willing to investigate this noise, find out where it is coming from (if you had 1000's of dollars of test gear, you could do this without disconnecting anything, but you don't...so, you're at the point of just living with it...or disconnect everything and do the tests), there's little more to do...
Good luck..



8) And, BTW, you've answered your own questions here....you're fairly sure where the problem lies, but are unwilling to test / investigate it, nor test / investigate the solutions...

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Disconnectng the lifepo4 - the bms modules look like little keychain car alarm fobs... with a little red led that blinks occasionally. they are hard wired to the cells. there is no off button, I would have to disassemble the battery to kill the power to them, and I am not going to do that. I can disconnect the battery from the house, but that doesn't shut off the bms. I have a victron battery monitor. I can't disconnect that either. If I disconnect it, it will not have any idea what my battery level is, and I'd have to re-sync it, which is not easy when you are not at a dock.

I've tried totally shutting the boat down. Nothing on but the BMS, and the victron. I've figured out what makes noise, the compressors for the fridge/freezer, the solar panels, fans, etc. Now I wait for night, so the solar panels are quiet, and turn off the fridge/freezer. It's hot, so I usually leave the fans on until I get a response (when doing data), and then I turn them off. Sometimes that gives me a speed boost, but not always. Lately though I've been taking the notebook into the cockpit, using a USB extension cord. I've got 3 chokes on both ends of the extension, all triple wrapped, and good ones bought from hro. I've got chokes to spare, everything has chokes on it.

You ignored the advice to not buy the IC-7200 which has a reputation for RFI issues....you write that you will not do any testing of the most significant RFI producing devices on-board....you've never mentioned exactly (or I missed the details) how your radio is used/set-up (what your settings are), and never told us what your noise and signal levels are...and until today, you never mentioned that you can't communicate 40 miles on 75m at sunrise...
So, I'm not sure what else to do...
I really don't...
I'm truly sorry you're having these troubles, and I had really hoped to have been of help, but without any willingness on your part there is little left to do...
So, I'm just going to wish you luck...

Fair winds and 73.

John

[autumnbreeze27]

Maybe you can't help me? Maybe somebody else can? I explain why I can't disconnect the BMS or Victron, and then you say that I'm not willing to troubleshoot the problem? If these things are the problem, I'm **** out of luck. I'm not willing to reset my battery monitor, or dismantle my lifepo4 battery, just to use the frickin radio. Have you ever cruised on a boat? This isn't a radio shack, this is a cruising yacht. It's not an option.

You criticize my choice of swr meter, radio, tuner, etc. This doesn't help me. You act like I said "Should I buy A or B?" and you said "Buy A" and I bought B just to spite you. WTF?!

The questions I can answer:
The run up the mizzen is about 35'. The run up the triatic is around 20'-22'
I'm not using the pre-amp
RF Gain -- not sure if I'm doing this right. That's the squelch knob? I've got it set to whatever they say the setting is for Winlink. I've played with it some but usually it doesn't help, but I could be doing this wrong, if there's some more info to share about properly adjusting this that might benefit me.
I use the NB and NR when they help. Typically the NB only helps engine noise, the NR sometimes helps with the background static, but neither can be on when doing data.
I don't think I can turn the Filter off, but I usually use Wide at the default when doing voice.
I get interference from my solar panels, so I disconnect them via the breakers when I'm using the radio, or I use the radio at night when they aren't making noise. I'm sure I've mentioned that I was able to troubleshoot this and determined they make noise.

The reasons I think something is wrong:
Sometimes when doing data in winlink, looking for a free frequency, I will hear people talking on a winlink freq. They are unintelligible, but it's definitely voice traffic. Sometimes there's just a noise, on the waterfall it's confined to a narrow band... so I just move on. Sometimes I get big swooshes or lazer beam noises... I assume those are atmospheric. I've never had people complain about hearing me, but honestly I turned on the radio to join the net 40nm away and I could barely understand people or hear them, I got disgusted and just turned the radio off.

Usually on the winlink, I rarely get 8 car data. Usually it's 2 car, which I'm guessing is the difference between 1500k and 512k. So my crap is slow. I was checking out a friends boat that has a 802/at-140/kiss/pactor4 and they connected to san diego during the daytime, with nothing turned off on the boat. I figured having a closer station helps, so I basically try and connect to the closest station I can just after sunset. The winlink stations are always busy, so maybe it's the fact that people are hogging the clean freqs and leaving me with the crappy ones, I don't know. I eventually connect to texas or somewhere and get what I need done, but it usually takes an hour of war dialing different stations to get one that can connect. Once i connect, there's about a 50% chance that at some point the other station stops responding to me.

The problem is 95% of the cruisers I meet have 802's and the $6000 setups, and I know more than them about pretty much everything. They turn their stuff on and it just works, they don't know why mine sucks, but assume it's because I didn't buy the damn 802. If I come across a deal one a used one, sure, I'd jump on it, but until that day I'm stuck with what I have.

If you want to offer more help, great, but please try and only quote my last post, and not every other post in the thread. I don't need to read the same thing over and over again. I didn't quote the reasons why I'm not going to dismantle my lifepo4 to see if the bms is the problem from my previous post, because if you didn't read it the first time, why would you read it the second?

[ka4wja]

Sorry, if my words seem harsh...not my intention...
My intention was to be blunt to spur specific detailed info, and over the past 10 months got none, but see you still wish to solve the problem...but without the info, I cannot be of any further help...sorry!

Yes, there are many here and I'm sure some will help....I do hope they will...it's just that I have exhausted all of my ability to garner info from you and provide you with worthwhile assistance..



And, yes....I have cruised on a boat....quite a bit since the 1960's
Wasn't aware that I needed to post by CV in order to assist you...
I'm currently on shore, caring for my elderly mother (sitting 5' from me, right now), with my current boat at the end of the dock 300' away...
I've cruised full-time (a year or two at a time) numerous times, on and off over the past 50 years....and part-time (3 to 6 moths at a time) quite often over the past 15 - 20 years...
And, most of my cruising has been in off-the-beaten path / 3rd world areas....and all my earlier cruising was without any of the modern conveniences that 99% of cruisers these days would not venture away from the dock without...
Heck, my last Atlantic crossings a few years ago, I didn't even take my laptop with me...(but I do take now....just have no e-mail when offshore, never found a need for it, only use it in port)



I won't ramble on more, I do wish all the best, and I do hope someone will help you out....it is just that I don't know what else to do / recommend...

Fair winds..

John

[transmitterdan]

Autumnbreeze27,

No one can intuit the cause of your noise. It is not your antenna causing the noise.

It is not correct to say that if the noise comes from some electronic device there is nothing you can do about it. But for sure if you don't know which device(s) are causing the noise you will never fix it.

Step 1 is to find which device(s) are the source.

Step 2 is to figure out how the noise gets to your radio.

Step 3 is to attenuate that method of transmission so your radio will work.

But if you won't even try step 1 then you will never get to step 3.

[Cheechako]

Had my ham radio on a dedicated/isolated motorcycle battery. One way to get rid of noise from other appliances.

[El Pinguino]

I've only skimmed this thread.... has anyone suggested using a small sony/tecsun/grundig/whatever receiver as an RFI sniffer?

[donradcliffe]

ESPECIALLY if the other boats can hear you, everything points to an RF noise generator on your boat. My recommendations in post #34 still stand.

[autumnbreeze27]

I guess I'll keep experimenting... trial and error is how I figure most things out.

I did gather that I should try and figure out if I'm doing something wrong with the gain.

Just came from no mans land... I've got about a week of traveling until we get to La Paz... then from there we go to the mainland, which has cellular access everywhere... so the radio is less important. I was just trying to help out the sonrisa net, because I like the folks that manage and run it, but it doesn't make any sense to have a net controller that has to get relays for everything.

The ham is nice to have, but if I were to spend any more money, it would be on satellite. I can get the ham working if I have to, and with enough rum I can find the patience to put up with all the associated BS it takes to make it work... with the high cost of satellite access... I can buy A LOT of rum.

Thanks all taking the time to chime in. If I ever find the secret noise maker on the boat... I'll post again.

[Jim Cate]

If I ever find the secret noise maker on the boat... I'll post again.

If you are unwilling or unable to temporarily disconnect the two most likely sources of the RFI, it is unlikely that you will find the the source.

Too bad.

But I'm glad that the Sonrisa net is still active. We enjoyed participation and net controlling back in '86-'89 when we were in the SOC.

jim

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

If you are unwilling or unable to temporarily disconnect the two most likely sources of the RFI, it is unlikely that you will find the the source.

Too bad.

jim

Am I missing something?

Let's pretend I dismantle the battery and the victron battery monitor, and nothing changed. What do I do then?

What if the noise goes away? I can't disconnect either one to use the radio. So that leaves, what, building a farraday cage around them? I can't replace them, I don't have the money to keep replacing things until I find the magic one that doesn't have a problem. I can't risk damaging the safety devices on my lithium ion battery that keep it from going into thermal runaway and destroying my home. I can't disconnect the victron battery monitor in a marina when I have shore power to reset it, because marinas are noisy environments anyways. It could still be the solar panels, maybe disconnecting them isn't good enough, maybe that only reduces, but does not eliminate, the noise they generate. So I'm still screwed there. What am I to do, take them all apart, and store them up on the bowsprit while I use the radio?! That's nuts.

I appreciate the help, but trying to say "Well, since you won't jeopardize your safety to check to see if it's coming from something you have no control over doing anything about, tough luck."

.