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Old 17-09-2015, 10:05   #31
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Re: Too many batteries?

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Originally Posted by motion30 View Post
To avoid all the confusion and misleading labeling why not make it easy and just go with the 6 volt golf cart batteries. Those 8 D batteries are back breakers any hOw
Lots of owner do that. Unfortunately the golf cart batteries are a bit taller than most boat builders allotted for so boaters often have to make do with alternatives.....
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Old 17-09-2015, 10:16   #32
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Re: Too many batteries?

A64 thanks for the pbase link. Just what I needed. Much better than dock talk. Now for some reading! Many thanks again.

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Old 17-09-2015, 10:17   #33
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Re: Too many batteries?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Lots of owner do that. Unfortunately the golf cart batteries are a bit taller than most boat builders allotted for so boaters often have to make do with alternatives.....

That is exactly why I have AGM's, although I struggled with cutting my existing box out and building another one. If I had access to a good fiberglass guy, I would have done that.


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Old 17-09-2015, 10:18   #34
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Re: Too many batteries?

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Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
A64 thanks for the pbase link. Just what I needed. Much better than dock talk. Now for some reading! Many thanks again.

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Don't thank me, it is Mainesail who did all the work, I just read it is all


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Old 17-09-2015, 10:22   #35
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Re: Too many batteries?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
That is exactly why I have AGM's, although I struggled with cutting my existing box out and building another one. If I had access to a good fiberglass guy, I would have done that.


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Not to mention all the extra cabling required for Golf cart batteries etc. It seems easy but those short fat cables are difficult to get right for sure.
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Old 17-09-2015, 11:29   #36
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Re: Too many batteries?

I have 6V AGM's so same amount of cabling.
I make my own from 00 aircraft cable, it's fully tinned like marine wire, but the cable is stiffer as I assume the wires are thicker and it's sheathed in white Teflon, but it is good wire, and I get it free.
I'm sure white wire does not meet with the standard wiring color, but oh well.

They are the GPL-4CT lifeline, I was given David Godber as a contact there by the Concorde aircraft battery people, David recommended the 6V GPL-4CT battery.
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Old 17-09-2015, 13:30   #37
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Re: Too many batteries?

I had Costco golf cart batteries for 5 years and they did ok. They did get discharged to 0 twice and the second time they were at less than 50% for several weeks. Just installing Duracell labeled GC2s from Sam's following Maine Sail's thoughts. Time will tell.

I read something on HandyBob's site https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...ging-puzzle-2/ that I hadn't thought of before. It appears having more capacity than needed uses more energy than having just enough. This is predicated on solar charging and I charge with a genset so there is an advantage for me for the higher acceptance rate of a larger bank. I will be interesting to hear others thoughts on this as solar is planned for the future....
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Old 17-09-2015, 17:54   #38
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Re: Too many batteries?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Yes marketing is the key problem, and no, there apparently is an issue with certain case sizes in, flooded batteries, being true deep cycle...

...

In AGM and GEL formulations we do have true deep cycle batteries in Group 24, 27 & 31 case sizes as well as 4D & 8D but I have never seen a true deep cycle 24, 27 or 31 battery in flooded. Could it be made? I believe it could, but it has not, likely because while it would have good cycle life the Ah rating would drop. Sadly most boaters buy batteries by the Ah rating & the deep cycle sticker, not the cycle life rating.........

...
Makes sense that the smaller sizes FLA batteries would have trouble meeting that criteriea.

I was thinking of the oft stated "8D FLAs are not true deep cycle batteries". This is a true statement for most FLA 8Ds because they are unscrupulously marketed, but nothing about the 8D size precludes them from being good deep cycle batteries...as a very limited number of manufacturers have proven.

(I'll stop beating that dead horse now)
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Old 17-09-2015, 21:21   #39
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Re: Too many batteries?

Badsanta,
With all the discussion of what is or isn't "deep cycle", nobody showed you where you can find this information....
Have a look below...

(FYI, most auto / truck batteries have positive plate thickness of only 0.030" - 0.040"....and typical positive plate thickness of > 0.070" to 0.090" is considered so-called consumer-grade "deep cycle", those with positive plate thickness of >0.120" to 0.140" are what most industrial / maritime services would consider actual "deep cycle"...and so-called industrial "traction batteries" and Telco-service batteries typically have positive plate thickness of > 0.150" to 0.250"...)
Please note that the thicker the plates, the longer it takes for that last 5% - 10% of charge....or compromises are usually made!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
If the GC, 31, 4D, 8D is just the outside case size how to you tell if it has thick or thin plates or deep cycle or not. How do you know. I hear alot of asumtions and generalities, is there anything on the label code that identifies the battery? Just asking.
The battery manufacturers have the data available, and any reputable battery supplier / distributor / retailer has this information for you...just ask them...(if they don't know what you're talking about, run away...fast!....if they simple refuse to tell 'ya, just walk!!

As example, the Rolls/Surettes I have, have 0.140" thick positive plates..
And, when you do some comparisons, based on dollars per A/H, Rolls/Surrettes are NOT really that high priced.....and when you look at their quality, their reputation, and their warranty...they're a pretty good deal.....
http://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/u.../12EHG375P.pdf

Here are the numbers, right off the spec sheet:

Quote:
POSITIVE PLATE DIMENSION:









HEIGHT
152 MM 6.000 INCHES

WIDTH 143 MM 5.625 INCHES

THICKNESS
3.56 MM 0.140 INCHES


FYI, there have been quite detailed discussions on this topic here...have a look...

Post #26 here:
Rolls versus AGM Batteries


Post #50 here:
House bank 6 volt vs 2 volt cells

Post #9 here:
Suitability Of Ganged 6v Batteries as a Large House Bank



Here's just some tidbits:

Quote:
C) Longevity, is a tough issue since most find longevity is directly tied to use/maintenance patterns.....

BUT, keeping those things equal, deep-cycle battery longevity is directly tied to the positive plat thickness.....

My new Rolls / Surrettes 2-volt cells, the 12-EHG-375PM's.rated at 375 A/H each (at the normal "20-hr rate").have a positive plate thickness of 0.140" (compared to my old Rolls 8D's positive plate thickness of 0.125")......

And, although I was unable to verify the Trojan T-105/T-125/T-145 pos plate thickness, I know it is no thicker than their L-16's which have 0.090" thick plates, and I suspect falls into the normal golf cart battery pos plate thickness range of .070" to 0.090"......


From a battery engineering website:
[ Plate thickness (of the Positive plate) matters because of a factor called "positive grid corrosion". This ranks among the top 3 reasons for battery failure. The positive (+) plate is what gets eaten away gradually over time, so eventually there is nothing left - it all falls to the bottom as sediment. Thicker plates are directly related to longer life, so other things being equal, the battery with the thickest plates will last the longest. The negative plate in batteries expands somewhat during discharge, which is why nearly all batteries have separators, such as glass mat or paper, that can be compressed.
Automotive batteries typically have plates about .040" (4/100") thick, while forklift batteries may have plates more than 1/4" (.265" for example in larger Rolls-Surrette) thick - almost 7 times as thick as auto batteries.
The typical golf cart will have plates that are around .07 to .11" thick.
The Concorde AGM's are .115", The Rolls-Surrette L-16 type (CH460) is .150", and the US Battery and Trojan L-16 types are .090". The Crown L-16HC size has .22" thick plates. While plate thickness is not the only factor in how many deep cycles a battery can take before it dies, it is the most important one.

Most industrial (fork lift) deep-cycle batteries use Lead-Antimony plates rather than the Lead-Calcium used in AGM or gelled deep-cycle batteries and in automotive starting batteries. The Antimony increases plate life and strength, but increases gassing and water loss. This is why most industrial batteries have to be checked often for water level if you do not have Hydrocaps.]
Quote:
I decided on the big 375 A/H, 12-EHG-375PM's.....at $850 - $875 each (for 375 A/H's...)
Which have 0.140" thick positive plates (and 0.120" neg plates), making them even better at really deep-cycling than their other deep-cycle
batteries......(there's a lot more to Rolls/Surrettes batteries than just
their A/H ratings....)


I've been using East Coast Battery in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for many
years.....and they ordered batteries for me....took about 3 - 4 weeks......

These new Rolls cost me about $2500 for an 1125 A/H battery bank.....or about $2.25 per A/H.....which corresponds nicely to what's typically sold these days as "normal" marine deep-cycle batteries.....


Some comparisons....
Trojan T-145's (260 A/H) are about $400 a pair....(their 6-volts, so you
need two to compare to 12-volt batteries)......
These are about the least expensive deep-cycle batteries for a marine house bank.....(at about $1.55 per A/H).....

The cheapest I've seen Lifeline AGM's advertized for, was $500 for their 250 A/H 8D....($2 per A/H)......but never heard of anyone buying them for that price......most seem to pay $700 to $750 each (About $3 per
A/H).......
Defender sells them for $690, and that seems to be about "normal"....

And for those looking at retail.....look at West Marine......their AGM 8D's
(at 245 A/H) sell for $700.....(almost $3 per A/H)....
And, their 225 A/H Gel's are about the same price, $700.....(over $3 per
A/H).....

So, when you do some comparisons, based on dollars per A/H, Rolls/Surrettes are NOT really that high priced.....and when you look at their quality, their reputation, and their warranty...they're a pretty good deal.....
I hope this helps...

Fair winds to 'ya!

John
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Old 17-09-2015, 22:14   #40
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Re: Too many batteries?

Thanks John for taking the time for that. Lots to concider. But much better than vague get this or that with nothing to back it up.

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Old 01-12-2015, 12:23   #41
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Re: Too many batteries?

Have to agree with "exMaggieDrum" I have 4 deep cycle Interstates, 6 years old and they have been consistantly drained down and recharged and still produce what I need. Actually in one instance they were flat lined, not a volt was reading on gauge, wife left fridge door open for 5 days. that was 2 years ago.
I think many people over think it, if replacing batteries after 6-8 years I think is good value. I do have a D400 wind Gen which works great.
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