Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

[Cap Erict3]

Although the docs on my 3G state 18 watt, I will put my Fluke in line and report back on total load on it and the T8.


Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

This does not agree with any of the Furuno literature I've read. From their installation manual, Furuno specs the DRS2D dome (via the radar power supply) as drawing 3.8A at 12V, or 45.6 watts. That's almost twice what you report. I understand that 20 - 30 watts here and there may not mean much to folks with bigger boats and gen-sets, but for those of us who have limited power budgets, it makes a big difference both in what equipment we choose and how we use it. That's why I'm struggling with determining what the actual or typical power draw for various manufacturers' equipment truly is. I suspect that some manufacturers may more conservative with their numbers while others may be more "ambitious" with their specs. If it turns out that there really is very little difference in total system power, that takes one big difference between them off the table and makes my choice somewhat easier. One of the big benefits, to me anyway, of the Navico (B&G) equipment is its lower power draw compared to the others. If this is just specs-man-ship, and not reality, I would really like to know that.

Yup, something is wonky with their power specs. I see the 3.8 @12V that you are referring to. But they also spec 0.4A @48V when powered from the MFD, and that's only 20W which is the same as a 4G radar (actually a bit less I think). One conclusion is that their stand alone power supply is really inefficient. But with 0.4A @48V able to power the scanner, it's hard not to conclude that's what the scanner consumes. So where is the extra power spec'd for the stand-alone supply going? I think it's to power the N2K bus segment that attaches to the radar. The MFD power spec specifically excludes that, and an amp or two at 12V sounds just about right.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

This does not agree with any of the Furuno literature I've read. From their installation manual, Furuno specs the DRS2D dome (via the radar power supply) as drawing 3.8A at 12V, or 45.6 watts. That's almost twice what you report. I understand that 20 - 30 watts here and there may not mean much to folks with bigger boats and gen-sets, but for those of us who have limited power budgets, it makes a big difference both in what equipment we choose and how we use it. That's why I'm struggling with determining what the actual or typical power draw for various manufacturers' equipment truly is. I suspect that some manufacturers may more conservative with their numbers while others may be more "ambitious" with their specs. If it turns out that there really is very little difference in total system power, that takes one big difference between them off the table and makes my choice somewhat easier. One of the big benefits, to me anyway, of the Navico (B&G) equipment is its lower power draw compared to the others. If this is just specs-man-ship, and not reality, I would really like to know that.

POWER SUPPLY
Power Supply / Consumption Current 12-24 VDC: 2.1/1.0 A

19" RADOME RADAR SENSOR DRS4DL | Marine Radar | Products | FURUNO


That's small dome, 19", but 4kW.

I know a lot of people who have switched to 3G and 4G, but no one I know has reported any practical amount of power savings. YMMV.

[Cap Erict3]

It looks like 48vdc supplied by mfd is about 50 watts according to the Furuno manual.


Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.

[wayne.b]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been allowing myself to fantasize a little about building a new boat, a fantasy which might never be realized, but one can dream, right?

When I got to electronics in my thoughts about how to specify it, I realized that I probably wouldn't go with Navico again. Something which surprised me, since I have loved this gear despite the problems with it.

The whole idea and functionality of the Zeus plotters and Triton MFDs is fantastic, but I have had to learn to leave with constant bugs and glitches, and why should I? My system is better now than it was, but I still have constant problems with the pilot keypad -- it crashes at least every few days. The plotters crash from time to time; the non-touch Zeus RELIABLY crashes when you shut it down. The pilot gets confused. The worst thing lately has been a lag in display of project course line, which eliminates the useful of the plotter for close maneuvering.

I'm just tired of it -- it's obviously not engineered and developed to standards of critical use equipment, however great it is in so many other ways.

I think it will be back to Ray, or over to Furuno, next time around.

My last Raymarine plotter, from the Pathfinder era, never crashed once during my ownership of it. Not one malfunction or glitch of any kind. It worked like military hardware, and that's the way crucial navigation instruments should work.

===

I installed a Furuno integrated plotter, radar and depth sounder 12 years ago because at that time it had the brightest, most readable screen and it had MARPA functionality. Not cheap but it's been a great investment. After 42,000 nautical miles of subsequent cruising it is far and away the most reliable equipment on the boat. Knock wood, it is glitch free and has never failed. The MARPA function is invaluable when running at night, especially in high traffic areas. I'd go that way again in a heartbeat.

One of the things that impressed me at the time of decision making was the number of commercial fishing boats that use Furuno electronics. Those guys go out in all kinds of conditions and depend on their gear working every day.

[Saltyhog]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

POWER SUPPLY
Power Supply / Consumption Current 12-24 VDC: 2.1/1.0 A

19" RADOME RADAR SENSOR DRS4DL | Marine Radar | Products | FURUNO


That's small dome, 19", but 4kW.

I know a lot of people who have switched to 3G and 4G, but no one I know has reported any practical amount of power savings. YMMV.

The DRS4DL is an interesting product. It seems Furuno is attempting to compete on price and power consumption. It does not support ARPA and is 24 RPM only. From the earlier discussion it seems that ARPA is at least somewhat important to some folks because the problems with B&Gs MARPA is what sparked some of this thread. It would be interesting to know what the DRS4D (which does support ARPA and faster rotation speeds) actually draws in typical use. The install manual says 4.0 A at 12 VDC with the PSU-017 power supply. That's almost twice the power of the DRS4DL, and that amounts to about 45 AH over 24 hours. For me, that is significant.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by wayne.b

===

I installed a Furuno integrated plotter, radar and depth sounder 12 years ago because at that time it had the brightest, most readable screen and it had MARPA functionality. Not cheap but it's been a great investment. After 42,000 nautical miles of subsequent cruising it is far and away the most reliable equipment on the boat. Knock wood, it is glitch free and has never failed. The MARPA function is invaluable when running at night, especially in high traffic areas. I'd go that way again in a heartbeat.

One of the things that impressed me at the time of decision making was the number of commercial fishing boats that use Furuno electronics. Those guys go out in all kinds of conditions and depend on their gear working every day.

I've heard Furuno was rock solid.

Retraction .....
Rereading it I see 48vdc @ .5 amps. Another duh moment.


Never use a hundred words when 3 will carry the message.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

I've heard Furuno was rock solid.

Retraction .....
Rereading it I see 48vdc @ .5 amps. Another duh moment.

Right, I think that's the number you need to use. The manual specifically says it excludes any power for the N2K bus segment that can be connected directly to, and powered by the radar dome.

I believe the higher power spec for the PCU-017 and other power supplies INCLUDES the max possible power for that N2K segment powered by the radar. If you don't connect anything to that N2K port, then it won't draw any power.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

The DRS4DL is an interesting product. It seems Furuno is attempting to compete on price and power consumption. It does not support ARPA and is 24 RPM only. From the earlier discussion it seems that ARPA is at least somewhat important to some folks because the problems with B&Gs MARPA is what sparked some of this thread. It would be interesting to know what the DRS4D (which does support ARPA and faster rotation speeds) actually draws in typical use. The install manual says 4.0 A at 12 VDC with the PSU-017 power supply. That's almost twice the power of the DRS4DL, and that amounts to about 45 AH over 24 hours. For me, that is significant.

The DRS4D does not require the external power supply - it is powered from the MFD.

I can't access the measurements I made on ours (they are in another thread here, though), but I know they weren't anywhere near 4A. I'm thinking along the lines of 1A.

Mark

[Saltyhog]

Originally Posted by colemj

The DRS4D does not require the external power supply - it is powered from the MFD.

I can't access the measurements I made on ours (they are in another thread here, though), but I know they weren't anywhere near 4A. I'm thinking along the lines of 1A.

Mark

That may be true when mating with the older Navnet3d MFDs, but it is not true for the TZTouch or TZTouch2. The newer MFDs require the PSU to supply 48 VDC for the radome. I can't believe that a 4kw radar only draws 12 watts in operation. That would be considerably less draw than Navico's FMCW product (speced at 20 watts) and would be a major selling point. As Furuno is bragging on the low power draw of the newer (but less capable) DRS4DL of only 23 watts, it just does not make sense. Perhaps you meant <1A at 48VDC. Furuno specs the DRS4D at 0.5 A at 48 VDC (24 watts). Once you include the PSU, spec'ed power jumps to 4.0 A at 12 VDC (48 watts). I don't see why the PSU would be so inefficient. Thus my confusion. There must be more to this that's isn't apparent from the specs. If it turns out that the ARPA capable DRS4D only draws 4 watts more than the Navico product, then I agree, the power savings (in full on operation) are not worth mentioning. But my intuition says there is more to this power draw question than I'm seeing from the various specifications. I've looked for the thread with your power measurements, but I'm coming up empty.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

That may be true when mating with the older Navnet3d MFDs, but it is not true for the TZTouch or TZTouch2. The newer MFDs require the PSU to supply 48 VDC for the radome. I can't believe that a 4kw radar only draws 12 watts in operation. That would be considerably less draw than Navico's FMCW product (speced at 20 watts) and would be a major selling point. As Furuno is bragging on the low power draw of the newer (but less capable) DRS4DL of only 23 watts, it just does not make sense. Perhaps you meant <1A at 48VDC. Furuno specs the DRS4D at 0.5 A at 48 VDC (24 watts). Once you include the PSU, spec'ed power jumps to 4.0 A at 12 VDC (48 watts). I don't see why the PSU would be so inefficient. Thus my confusion. There must be more to this that's isn't apparent from the specs. If it turns out that the ARPA capable DRS4D only draws 4 watts more than the Navico product, then I agree, the power savings (in full on operation) are not worth mentioning. But my intuition says there is more to this power draw question than I'm seeing from the various specifications. I've looked for the thread with your power measurements, but I'm coming up empty.

I didn't know that about the new mfd's.

My 1A figure was the difference between standby and operation, so there is the magnetron heater to also add in. And I'm going completely by memory.

I think the older thread was started by Dockhead, and was about the 3G radar.

Pretty crappy day today so maybe I'll make some measurements.

Mark

[colemj]

OK, that was pretty easy to do.

Setup: DRS4D connected directly through a NN3D MFD8

MFD on, radar stby: 2.64A

MFD on, radar on: 3.18A @0.5nm, 3.46A @12nm

MFD stby, radar stby: 2.00A

MFD on, radar disconnected: 1.53A

MFD stby, radar disconnected: 0.90A

So the summary is that the radar uses 1.11A in stby to keep its magnetron warm, and uses an additional 0.54-0.82A to operate (range/speed dependant).

Its total power usage in operation then is 1.65-1.93A, or 20-23W (range/speed dependant).

Mark

[colemj]

One thing to take away from the above is how little power is used to operate a pulse radar.

Navico takes HUGE liberties in their marketing by portraying pulse radars as using "kilowatts" of power, while fmcw uses only a few watts.

The reality is that those kilowatts of pulse energy are contained in microsecond bursts, while those watts of fmcw are going on almost continuously.

The resulting power difference between these two operating modes is practically non-existent.

As my data bear out.

The only real power difference is that 12W to keep the magnetron warm in standby on the pulse units.

That means that the fmcw radars only have a power advantage when they are shut off and not being used. This is a silly and meaningless way to consider an advantage.

But Navico sure makes hay with it...

Mark

[colemj]

One other thing: I don't have a fmcw radar to make measurements on, so all I can do is compare actual pulse data with fmcw specs.

It is quite possible that fmcw uses much less power in practice than their specs indicate.

Perhaps someone with one can do similar measurements?

Mark

[Saltyhog]

Thank you for taking the time to make those measurements Mark. I owe you beverages
Your measurements make things pretty clear. In full on operation, there is no real difference. As you say, the difference is only when in "standby" mode. Essentially off for FMCW and keeping the magnetron warm for pulse. I could easily live with that trade-off.

I doubt the Navico's FMCW radar consumes "less" power than their marketing says. It would be interesting to see an actual or typical use measurement though. WRT the apparent higher draw of the Furuno radar when powering via their external power supply as required with the newer MFDs, I suspect there is more to it. Perhaps that number is a maximum with the supply loaded with additional CAN loads. I predict that Furuno will be adding additional "L" suffix products which don't need the PSU. That would be consistent with their more recent offerings that meet a lower price point. Thanks.