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Old 16-12-2015, 09:19   #121
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

Could we start a different MARPA/ARPA thread - or whatever it is - for this discussion? As a Navico instrument owner who has a list of bugs, I would really prefer to have this thread about bugs in Navico equipment, stay on focus. Would like to know who else has experienced equipment shut down on its own and restart. Would like to know what other problems have occurred, and what Navico techs have done about it. I think the drift into radar theory or whatever is really off topic. Shoot me.
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Old 16-12-2015, 09:30   #122
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

You may certainly start your own thread.
I'd suggest you title it exactly what your after, and maybe even have a poll to gather data, asking specifically what data your after, like screen freeze, shutdown etc.

But threads do drift, it's the nature of things
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Old 16-12-2015, 09:49   #123
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

I thought MARPA was considered a bug in Navico radars? At least one person here has listed it as such.

Would it likewise be wrong and off-focus to discuss the technical nature behind your equipment shutdown and restart - or the possible technical reasons your network may be interacting with them incorrectly?

I don't think anyone here is looking just for answers like "push that button".

If Navico won't solve your problem or even tell you why it is happening, why can't some of the learned people here try?

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Old 16-12-2015, 09:54   #124
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

Come on guys - really? Read the last two pages. Discussing the theory behind radar beam, etc., I don't think is even specific to Navico. But ok, you win. I will just unsubscribe.
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Old 16-12-2015, 10:53   #125
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Sorry, absolutely everything one can do to visible light can be done with any other frequency of EM. Lensing in all forms, forming coherent beams, etc. It is the basic physics behind photons. Microwaves, in particular, have well-advanced lensing, since they are our main communication and probe frequencies.

And the lower the frequency, the more "blurred" the edges are (just try to focus radio frequencies without them diffracting and interacting all around the beam edge). Visible light by no means forms tight beams with sharp edges. Microwaves are much better in this regard.

Radar made of visible light (LIDAR, which is in wide use - think radar guns and range finders, for example) has less resolution than our current microwave sets - and they use lasers for the light source.

One reason visible light (LIDAR) isn't used for navigational radar is because it is so poor in this application (and is opaque to dust, rain, etc).

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If you know more about this than I do - which is not hard to imagine, as I'm certainly no physicist (as my physics professor little brother is fond of pointing out) - then I'll be happy to have a lesson.

We don't have lenses in our radars, and our radars use incoherent, unfocused beams. If "lensing" is possible with all EM radiation, then why don't we use it?

I'm guessing it's for the reasons I already stated - no lens, or anyway no practical lens, at these wavelengths, and we like microwaves since they penetrate all kinds of interference over great distances, unlike other types of EM radiation we might choose.

But if I'm wrong, I'll be very happy to be enlightened.

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Old 16-12-2015, 11:31   #126
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

I believe Radar can be focused, just maybe a phased array isn't affordable at my level anyway.
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Old 17-12-2015, 20:15   #127
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
Could we start a different MARPA/ARPA thread - or whatever it is - for this discussion? As a Navico instrument owner who has a list of bugs, I would really prefer to have this thread about bugs in Navico equipment, stay on focus. Would like to know who else has experienced equipment shut down on its own and restart. Would like to know what other problems have occurred, and what Navico techs have done about it. I think the drift into radar theory or whatever is really off topic. Shoot me.
If you want a list of Simrad bugs, I've detailed about 2 dozen in my blog. Start with the Wall of Shame link. MARPA is just one of them.
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Old 20-12-2015, 00:44   #128
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

I am a fan of the low power consumption of the fmcw. I leave the radar on continuously without worrying about the drain on my batteries.


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Old 20-12-2015, 05:58   #129
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

We have been through the power thing on other threads. I don't have access to my computer that has the actual specs, but the power use difference between pulse and fmcw is almost nil in operation.

The difference is only apparent when NOT in operation - where a pulse unit requires power to keeps its magnetron warm, while a fmcw shuts off completely.

So if you like to keep yours running continuously, then you are using similar power as a pulse unit.

Even when not in use, the difference is at most 1A (I think it is 0.7A on ours).

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Old 20-12-2015, 06:46   #130
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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We have been through the power thing on other threads. I don't have access to my computer that has the actual specs, but the power use difference between pulse and fmcw is almost nil in operation.

The difference is only apparent when NOT in operation - where a pulse unit requires power to keeps its magnetron warm, while a fmcw shuts off completely.

So if you like to keep yours running continuously, then you are using similar power as a pulse unit.

Even when not in use, the difference is at most 1A (I think it is 0.7A on ours).

Mark
The Furuno has a watch mode where it will scan for up to 30 seconds then go into standby for 5 minutes for example. If power is important to you then you may find that feature useful. In that mode the Furuno will use less power than the Navico, which can't switch on intermittently.
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Old 20-12-2015, 09:21   #131
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

Are you sure about the Navico? I don't think there is any inherent reason why it couldn't do this.

Yes, I know about this ability in our Furuno. We just find it easier to simply turn it on every half hour on passage and fiddle with/watch for a bit to see if there is anything interesting. Then put it back in standby.

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Old 20-12-2015, 10:03   #132
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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Are you sure about the Navico? I don't think there is any inherent reason why it couldn't do this.

Yes, I know about this ability in our Furuno. We just find it easier to simply turn it on every half hour on passage and fiddle with/watch for a bit to see if there is anything interesting. Then put it back in standby.

Mark
I can't say for 100% certain. Just, I skim read the manuals as I am in the market for this kit and am happy to do anything but my Christmas shopping. It's not there, but of course it could be an undocumented feature.

There are many features that could be there, should be there or could be fixed - just a bit of programming, which if they are lucky will work first time .
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Old 20-12-2015, 10:53   #133
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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I am a fan of the low power consumption of the fmcw. I leave the radar on continuously without worrying about the drain on my batteries.


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The power is not noticeable to us. A 19" Furuno uses about 24 watts, about like an anchor light. The Navico 4G uses 20 watts.

If you're on a really miserly power budget, you can shut down the Navico completely, because it's instant-on. The Furuno has to be kept in stand-by (to keep the magnetron heated), which uses a few watts. I doubt if the Furuno's "watch mode" will save any measurable power compared to the 4G, but I think the differences are all practically unmeasurable anyway.

I don't think it's a big advantage for many people.
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:47   #134
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

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The power is not noticeable to us. A 19" Furuno uses about 24 watts, about like an anchor light. The Navico 4G uses 20 watts.

If you're on a really miserly power budget, you can shut down the Navico completely, because it's instant-on. The Furuno has to be kept in stand-by (to keep the magnetron heated), which uses a few watts. I doubt if the Furuno's "watch mode" will save any measurable power compared to the 4G, but I think the differences are all practically unmeasurable anyway.

I don't think it's a big advantage for many people.
This does not agree with any of the Furuno literature I've read. From their installation manual, Furuno specs the DRS2D dome (via the radar power supply) as drawing 3.8A at 12V, or 45.6 watts. That's almost twice what you report. I understand that 20 - 30 watts here and there may not mean much to folks with bigger boats and gen-sets, but for those of us who have limited power budgets, it makes a big difference both in what equipment we choose and how we use it. That's why I'm struggling with determining what the actual or typical power draw for various manufacturers' equipment truly is. I suspect that some manufacturers may more conservative with their numbers while others may be more "ambitious" with their specs. If it turns out that there really is very little difference in total system power, that takes one big difference between them off the table and makes my choice somewhat easier. One of the big benefits, to me anyway, of the Navico (B&G) equipment is its lower power draw compared to the others. If this is just specs-man-ship, and not reality, I would really like to know that.
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Old 21-12-2015, 11:39   #135
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Re: Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

I don't have access to my data on my computer, but there was a thread here on just this, where people with both systems actually measured the power usage of the radars. If I remember correctly, it is how I stated it earlier - there is almost no power difference in operation, but a difference when in standby (due to pulse needing to keep the magnetron warm).

Both systems need equal power to turn the antenna. They also need power to generate their signal - this turns out to be very similar between the two (while pulse uses "kW's" of powers, it is only for microseconds, while fmcw is transmitting almost continually).

Any remaining power difference is in keeping the magnetron warm.

Navico has taken liberties in marketing on this point.

Only when the radar transmissions are turned off does fmcw use less power in any practical sense. But this is a silly way to look at it, don't you think?

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