Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been allowing myself to fantasize a little about building a new boat, a fantasy which might never be realized, but one can dream, right?

When I got to electronics in my thoughts about how to specify it, I realized that I probably wouldn't go with Navico again. Something which surprised me, since I have loved this gear despite the problems with it.

The whole idea and functionality of the Zeus plotters and Triton MFDs is fantastic, but I have had to learn to leave with constant bugs and glitches, and why should I? My system is better now than it was, but I still have constant problems with the pilot keypad -- it crashes at least every few days. The plotters crash from time to time; the non-touch Zeus RELIABLY crashes when you shut it down. The pilot gets confused. The worst thing lately has been a lag in display of project course line, which eliminates the useful of the plotter for close maneuvering.

I'm just tired of it -- it's obviously not engineered and developed to standards of critical use equipment, however great it is in so many other ways.

I think it will be back to Ray, or over to Furuno, next time around.

My last Raymarine plotter, from the Pathfinder era, never crashed once during my ownership of it. Not one malfunction or glitch of any kind. It worked like military hardware, and that's the way crucial navigation instruments should work.

Sorry to hear you've had these issues.

When you say "crashes", what do you mean exactly? Does it lock up, or shut itself down?

I have to say my NSS 12 has had none of the problems you've had.

Still has a couple of bugs though - sometimes when it's first switched on it doesn't display the chart over the whole screen - there's a blank strip down the right hand side. If I select another page the chart is right when I come back to it though. And before the last software update, it occasionally wouldn't accept waypoints or routes. But that seems fixed now.

You're right about the software not being fully sorted, just glad mine seems to be a bit better sorted than yours!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dockhead,

You are the only cruiser we know... Someone who's actually out doing it for months or years at a time.... Who's not using an iPad.

Time to get with the times and add some convenience and ease of operation to your life. Forget those permanently installed and usually out of date expensive boat show gizmos.

Buy a couple of cellular iPads, put them in Lifeproof cases along with a Lifeproof life jacket.

Had dinner last night with a wonderful, charming German couple who've been cruising for thirty years... The past ten years on their Oyster 53. I asked if they used an iPad.... "Of course we do... Doesn't everyone?" Was the reply.

LOL! I haven't met ANYONE who uses an Ipad as their primary chartplotter. After 5 years full time liveaboard cruising. Haven't met one.

But then we sometimes sail our catamaran too.... and occasionally see others doing likewise!

Can you get you Ipad to interface with your sailing instruments? Your autopilot?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Can you get you Ipad to interface with your sailing instruments? Your autopilot?

We have ours interfaced with our sailing instruments. That part is pretty easy, but limited in functionality - mostly because of limitations of the apps themselves, but also because of the wifi NMEA mess out there.

Then there is the whole business of swiping through screens to get to the instrument display you want. Unless you have 6 of them stuck to your helm station, I suppose...

Autopilots are a no-go. Even the big names that have full functionality apps (radar, plotting, etc) purposefully do not let those apps control the autopilot.

We love the iPad as a remote station, but it isn't a primary piece of gear by a long shot. It could be used as a primary if one was just toodeling around known waters they visit constantly and only needed a simple chart follower with basic instrumentation. We know many people who use them this way.

They can also serve as a primary charting device for those who are fine cruising without much need for integration or full data sets. I don't think that applies to Dockhead…

Mark

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by colemj

I don't understand. You are using your iPad as an autopilot and radar? What is all that other stuff for? You told Dockhead to ditch everything for an iPad. BTW, I think he does have an Android tablet on board, as well as a PC. Does it have to be an iPad?

His current problems don't seem to be interconnecting bugs. As for KISS, don't your instruments provide data to your Nobeltec, autopilot and radar? If so, how do they do that without interconnecting? AIS isn't integrated anywhere? Wifi is still an integration, with a higher potential for bugs than wired NMEA. I don't think you have thought out your non-interconnection hubris very well, nor how KISS your system really is - particularly if you are relying on wifi.

Do you really have six ipads/PC's on board for independent chart plotting redundancy? Just an honest question. We have seven independent chart plotting devices and 11 GPS devices on board - many of which were acquired incidental to other purposes (our freaking camera has a GPS that can be used for position fixes, for example).

While we are happy with this redundancy, we don't use our camera, nor our iPad, as our primary instrumentation.

Mark

You made way too many incorrect assumptions in your post, I don't know where to start in order to sort it out.

Better yet, I'll wait for Dockhead to chime in.

Ken

[carstenb]

I don't have an Ipad, nor do I have touch screens and for some very good reasons. First they are not (to my knowledge ) compatible with autopilots. The really important thing though is they simply don't work if your fingers are cold (or you're wearing gloves) or even if they are wet. I also find it much easier to work the plotter with buttons than to try to get fingers on a touch screen when we're in heavy seas.

I've been on Dockheads boat and his B&G has both buttons and touch - When you're out in big waves - you'll use the buttons

I have a Furuno MFD12 and Furuno radar, the rest is raymarine. Had some issues getting all that to function but now it works seamlessly.

[Kenomac]

The point I've been attempting to make and suggest is to simplify. KISS. Most of you who use complex systems, seem to deal with the bugs, crashes and issues inherent in complex systems, then come on the forum annoyed with your expensive purchase.

With our very simple system, I spend zero amount of time dealing with problems, crashes and bugs. Zero frustration.

We have what was ten years ago, probably the most sophisticated and expensive Furuno chart plotter onboard... We never use it, basically, it's become a radar screen. Instead, the iPads and pcs are far easier to use and trouble free. The reason for using iPads over android tables is the software and apps. Nobeltec and inavx are only available for iPad.

And seriously... Do you guys really spend all your time during passages/harbor hopping glued to your expensive chartplotters at the helm? Why waste time fussing with the interconnection problems? Seems like a big waste of time on something that will become obsolete or broken and unsupported within 5 years.

iPads are so easy and trouble free, you can hand it to a 10 year old, explain the chartplotter function on inavx or Nobeltec, and then the ten year old will be able to navigate accurately with only ten minutes of instruction. No tech support or IT personnel needed.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The point I've been attempting to make and suggest is to simplify. KISS. Most of you who use complex systems, seem to deal with the bugs, crashes and issues inherent in complex systems, then come on the forum annoyed with your expensive purchase.

With our very simple system, I spend zero amount of time dealing with problems, crashes and bugs. Zero frustration.

We have what was ten years ago, probably the most sophisticated and expensive Furuno chart plotter onboard... We never use it, basically, it's become a radar screen. Instead, the iPads and pcs are far easier to use and trouble free. The reason for using iPads over android tables is the software and apps. Nobeltec and inavx are only available for iPad.

And seriously... Do you guys really spend all your time during passages/harbor hopping glued to your expensive chartplotters at the helm? Why waste time fussing with the interconnection problems? Seems like a big waste of time on something that will become obsolete or broken and unsupported within 5 years.

iPads are so easy and trouble free, you can hand it to a 10 year old, explain the chartplotter function on inavx or Nobeltec, and then the ten year old will be able to navigate accurately with only ten minutes of instruction. No tech support or IT personnel needed.

You haven't yet described how your system is "simplified". Do you not have any communication connection between devices at all? I bet on a technical level, your system is far more complex than Dockheads. His problem seems to be bugs in his specific chart plotter, not in communication or connectivity - or even in chart plotters and other instrumentation in general.

Your posts here leads me to believe you don't understand your own instrument/computer communication setup on any technical level, let alone have enough acumen in this area to advise someone like Dockhead.

You may be happy with your iPad as your primary device for chart plotting, but few are - and it is in no way a substitution for dedicated instruments, radar, or autopilot.

And again, we use and love our iPads for ancillary navigation devices - they fill a unique interstitial role for us between our instruments, computers and chart plotter, but not as a primary device.

Mark

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by colemj

Your posts here leads me to believe you don't understand your own instrument/computer communication setup on any technical level, let alone have enough acumen in this area to advise someone like Dockhead.

You may be happy with your iPad as your primary device for chart plotting, but few are - and it is in no way a substitution for dedicated instruments, radar, or autopilot.

And again, we use and love our iPads for ancillary navigation devices - they fill a unique interstitial role for us between our instruments, computers and chart plotter, but not as a primary device.

Mark

You're right again, I'm just a simpleton who has somehow managed to sail from England, down and around to Balearics off Spain, then over to Italy, then up and down Corsica and Sardinia. Also, up and down the coast of California. How do us idiots do it? Amazing luck using only an iPad... Just like the two delivery crews and skippers used when they delivered our boat to Guernsey. Those two guys with over 300,000 miles of combined experience between them. Imagine how lucky they were to navigate with only a mini PC and iPad.

Dumb luck I guess. ;-)

Ken

BTW: Dockhead is doing the same type of cruising as we are.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You're right again, I'm just a simpleton who has somehow managed to sail from England, down and around to Balearics off Spain, then over to Italy, then up and down Corsica and Sardinia. Also, up and down the coast of California. How do us idiots do it? Amazing luck using only an iPad... Just like the two delivery crews and skippers used when they delivered our boat to Guernsey. Those two guys with over 300,000 miles of combined experience between them. Imagine how lucky they were to navigate with only a mini PC and iPad.

Dumb luck I guess. ;-)

Ken

Ken, I didn't question your sailing or navigation abilities - only your technical knowledge in this thread topic. Why you would confuse that is beyond me, other than to attempt to paint me unfavorably and deflect the specific questions I asked of you.

Not one of which you have answered, by the way…

Mark

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been allowing myself to fantasize a little about building a new boat, a fantasy which might never be realized, but one can dream, right?

When I got to electronics in my thoughts about how to specify it, I realized that I probably wouldn't go with Navico again. Something which surprised me, since I have loved this gear despite the problems with it.

The whole idea and functionality of the Zeus plotters and Triton MFDs is fantastic, but I have had to learn to leave with constant bugs and glitches, and why should I? My system is better now than it was, but I still have constant problems with the pilot keypad -- it crashes at least every few days. The plotters crash from time to time; the non-touch Zeus RELIABLY crashes when you shut it down. The pilot gets confused. The worst thing lately has been a lag in display of project course line, which eliminates the useful of the plotter for close maneuvering.

I'm just tired of it -- it's obviously not engineered and developed to standards of critical use equipment, however great it is in so many other ways.

I think it will be back to Ray, or over to Furuno, next time around.

My last Raymarine plotter, from the Pathfinder era, never crashed once during my ownership of it. Not one malfunction or glitch of any kind. It worked like military hardware, and that's the way crucial navigation instruments should work.

As one who installs all of it I can honestly say that Garmin has the least issues with "buggyness". Garmin is not fancy by any means but I get the least number of complaints & problems from Garmin customers. Is Garmin perfect? Hell no, just better than the others in terms of out of the box QC and lack of bugs...

Hell Raymarine denied there was any issue with the e7 plotter screens for well over a year despite having sent back multiple units for the same exact screen issue.. Each time it was....

"Your the first we've heard of this. Send it in and we'll take a look."...

Also had three or four newer e-series plotters lock up so bad that even the super-secret (not in the manual or known to anyone but Raymarine engineering & repair technicians in Nashua) Raymarine tech-guru reset would not un-freeze the software. Ship it back to Nashua....

They finally issued a TSB on the screen problem, and offered to replace screens, but the labor allowance was so pathetic as to not even be worth the time to fill out the paperwork. I lost money on every one of those e7 installs.... QC at Raymarine......

In terms of QC or bug issues, that I see day to day, Raymarine is at the top with the Navico group a close second then Furuno then Garmin.

I really like the new B&G stuff but every time I install one I know the phone calls will come. I did a B&G V50 VHF just three weeks ago (supposedly after all the bugs had been fixed in the V50) that is already glitchy and claiming it is losing GPS data, when it is not. Has current flash of software, yada, yada, yada....

"You're the first, we've never heard of that, send it in."

So goes the game with DIY's and factory trained installers doing the "field engineering" that should have been done before the product left the factory...

iPads, reliable.... I wish mine was... My iPad Air crashes constantly, freezes or becomes so slow as to be almost useless, it also over heats when in bright sun and can barely be seen in bright sun. The glare from the gloss screen makes it almost useless in the cockpit unless the full bimini is up. I won't even go into visibility with sunglasses on. It also burns through the battery on full bright and running nav software so I get about 3-4 hours before sending it below for a charge... It is a great back up to my installed plotter though..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by colemj

Dockhead, do you have a B&G VHF on your network? There is a thread about that, and I experienced this radio causing all sorts of buggy behavior with B&G equipment on another boat. Once that radio was pulled out, everything worked perfectly.

Mark

No, I use Icom for VHF and HF radio.

I don't have any problems with my Tritons other than the conflicts I mentioned above. It is possible that everything is the fault of the plotters and of the pilot controller and/or keypad.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I did a B&G V50 VHF just three weeks ago that is already glitchy and claiming it is losing GPS data, when it is not. Has current software, yada, yada, yada....[I][B]"You're the first, we've never heard of that, send it in."

Do you know of any single case where this radio has actually worked well on a network? It seems to be the #1 cause of problems with other Navico instrumentation. The threads here, as well as around the internet, are rife with complaints about this radio.

Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

As one who installs all of it I can honestly say that Garmin has the least issues with "buggyness". Garmin is not fancy by any means but I get the least number of complaints & problems from Garmin customers. Is Garmin perfect? Hell no, just better than the others in terms of out of the box QC and lack of bugs...

Hell Raymarine denied there was any issue with the e7 plotter screens for well over a year despite having sent back multiple units for the same exact screen issue.. Each time it was....

"Your the first we've heard of this. Send it in and we'll take a look."...

Also had three or four newer e-series plotters lock up so bad that even the super-secret (not in the manual or known to anyone but Raymarine engineering & repair technicians in Nashua) Raymarine tech-guru reset would not un-freeze the software. Ship it back to Nashua....

They finally issued a TSB on the screen problem, and offered to replace screens, but the labor allowance was so pathetic as to not even be worth the time to fill out the paperwork. I lost money on every one of those e7 installs.... QC at Raymarine......

In terms of QC or bug issues, that I see day to day, Raymarine is at the top with the Navico group a close second then Furuno then Garmin.

I really like the new B&G stuff but every time I install one I know the phone calls will come. I did a B&G V50 VHF just three weeks ago that is already glitchy and claiming it is losing GPS data, when it is not. Has current software, yada, yada, yada...."You're the first, we've never heard of that, send it in."

So goes the game with DIY's and factory trained installers doing the "field engineering" that should have been done before the product left the factory...

I'm sorry to hear this about Raymarine. My last Ray gear was just after the switch from Raytheon, and it was military in its quality -- absolutely reliable and bulletproof.

I won't do Garmin because of the cartography issue (they should give the plotters for free if you are forced to buy their cartography, I say), but also because it's just not the right stuff for me. Did they ever fix that problem where you could only get depth in meters if you chose to display distance in KM?


So I guess either hope that the next generation of B&G is fully baked, or desert to Furuno, which I have no experience with. I've played with Furuno radars, and they were the t*ts. The plotters seemed old-fashioned and kludgy to me, but maybe there is a new generation I haven't seen.

I do really feel sorry for installers like Maine Sail who unfairly become development engineers for free. But I feel sorry for us, too.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by colemj

Do you know of any single case where this radio has actually worked well on a network? It seems to be the #1 cause of problems with other Navico instrumentation. The threads here, as well as around the internet, are rife with complaints about this radio.

Mark

I am well aware of the issues and held off on these for a long while. My rep had recently told me all the bugs had been addressed in the recent software update, so I pulled the plug on one... Bad idea.... I guess there is a reason SH held off on an N2K VHF AIS...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've played with Furuno radars, and they were the t*ts. The plotters seemed old-fashioned and kludgy to me

That is our impression of our Furuno radar/plotter. On the plotter side, you will also be giving up the sailing-specific features. I would rank the Furuno plotter itself among the lowest in functionality/usability, although I have limited experience with the TZ touch models.

The radar, however, is a rock-solid piece of work.

Mark