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Old 19-06-2014, 09:33   #256
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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"it's OK to carefully cut that toward your hand - yes, I know you always cut yourself, but this time you are paying attention - forget what happened last time, that was a completely different situation - just do it slow and careful and nothing will slip - it is only a tiny little bit you need to cut off it, go ahead"…"

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Old 19-06-2014, 10:05   #257
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
...The other annoying problem I put down squarely to the Americans. After the last upgrade you can only have depths in feet by choosing the imperial distance measurement nautical miles option. If you want depths in meters then you must have distances in km So 300 million Europeans who have been using the sea for 10 centuries now have to change. I will be writing to Garmin in the strongest possible terms ...
Maybe it was a nod to America, since the company started in the U.S., and was headquartered there for many years. Living in the U.S., i hate products that go overboard to appeal to obscure international places. For example, when setting up software products and you have to choose location from a drop-down scrolling list. Most companies list "United States" at the top, since the vast majority of their customers are expected to come from there. When i am registering a product online, I have to go through the whole list to find the "U" section (for "United States"). I always think "yeah right, I am sure that there are a whole bunch of users in American Somoa, Albania, or Angola" Most companies used to list USA at the top of the list. I guess i just got used to it.
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:33   #258
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Great stuff. So now we know three systems which show relative positions at CPA:

OpenCPN

Vesper

Software On Board


So it's not actually rocket science. I wonder why this is not implemented on plotters?

NavMonPc can automatically extend the vectors of your boat and the AIS target in question out to the CPA/TCPA. Just click on the target in question and check the "extend vectors to CPA" box. I use this feature all the time and like it (that's why I included it back in 2008).

NavMonPc also lets you filter your own GPS course and speed, smoothing out the vector jumping around problem, but does not filter data from the other vessels.

NavMonPc is a little dated now that OpenCPN and others have implemented excellent AIS features, but it you are using it and didn't know about the "extend vectors" feature, you should try it out.
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Old 20-06-2014, 02:55   #259
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I was rushing to solve problems then.... So I take the blame.

I am curious about regular users opinion of the "touchscreen" MFD.

The delivery crew from HK to Philippines had both the AIS and Autopilot intermittently fail enroute, then fail altogether.

When I was working on it, I did find some setup mistakes which I believe could more easily have happened when they were using a touchscreen to fix the problem at sea.

I guess that is why they provide a lockscreen function and a warning to use it when rough.

I did fix the problems and it worked great on my delivery to Cebu

But...Is using that touchscreen a real concern when rough ?
This is probably worth a separate thread.

When I was choosing plotters, I had the choice between touch and non-touch versions of the Zeus. The non-touch doesn't do Sailscreen, and doesn't do GoFree, so I decided to have one of each. Reluctantly -- because I thought that touch screens would not work well in wet and rough conditions. I thought I would much prefer the buttons version.

In practice, the touchscreen, at least the one made by Navico (Simrad/B&G) is absolutely fine in wet and rough weather. Only drawback is it doesn't quite work with gloves on, but water is no problem -- even pouring rain.

And in general, the touchscreen interface is much better than I expected. I guess I probably prefer the button interface altogether, but only slightly. Touchscreen is absolutely fine and even has some advantages.

One thing to keep in mind -- the touchscreen plotters from Navico are very different beasts from the earlier, non-touch ones. The non-touch plotters are still built military hardware style -- die cast aluminum case, heavy, solid, really military type construction -- lovely. And obviously little attempt to save costs -- three Ethernet ports instead of one, for example. The touch version is intensely cheapened -- light plastic case, cheapened everywhere possible.

It is obvious to me that the new plotters are not designed with a designed useful life of 10 years, like the old ones. I guess this is ok -- they are really computers now (with built in hard drives and everything) and will be obsolete in shorter periods of time than used to be the case. So I think people should keep in mind that they will want to treat them like laptops and not expect to use them for 10 years at a time.

Fortunately, they are dramatically cheaper than they used to be, so you can afford to change them more often. Unfortunately that didn't help me. I bought probably the very first touch Zeus sold in the U.S., and paid full whack for it, the same as the non-touch ones cost the year before. They are now dramatically cheaper, with the 7" version costing about what we paid for wind displays a few years ago, less than a grand.

Another downside is that also like computers, they crash more often. I guess the development cycle is much shorter and they do less debugging, plus the software is incomparably more complex than it used to be. My old Raymarine RL80CRC+ Pathfinder gear never, ever, once even crashed, much less did I have any problem or failure, in years of use. The Zeus touch crashes fairly regularly, sometimes needing the power to be cut to it to get it back on line.

To my mind it's all worth it and this is actually progress -- the functionality of the new MFD's is just light years ahead of the old ones, and will probably now get better and better at an accelerating pace.
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Old 20-06-2014, 02:59   #260
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
NavMonPc can automatically extend the vectors of your boat and the AIS target in question out to the CPA/TCPA. Just click on the target in question and check the "extend vectors to CPA" box. I use this feature all the time and like it (that's why I included it back in 2008).

NavMonPc also lets you filter your own GPS course and speed, smoothing out the vector jumping around problem, but does not filter data from the other vessels.

NavMonPc is a little dated now that OpenCPN and others have implemented excellent AIS features, but it you are using it and didn't know about the "extend vectors" feature, you should try it out.
Cool!
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Old 20-06-2014, 03:05   #261
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Joe from ny View Post
Maybe it was a nod to America, since the company started in the U.S., and was headquartered there for many years. Living in the U.S., i hate products that go overboard to appeal to obscure international places. For example, when setting up software products and you have to choose location from a drop-down scrolling list. Most companies list "United States" at the top, since the vast majority of their customers are expected to come from there. When i am registering a product online, I have to go through the whole list to find the "U" section (for "United States"). I always think "yeah right, I am sure that there are a whole bunch of users in American Somoa, Albania, or Angola" Most companies used to list USA at the top of the list. I guess i just got used to it.
Hmm, I don't think Pete suggested that depth in feet should be excluded from the menu, and I bet he wouldn't even mind if depth in feet was the default choice.

But to not even allow miles and meters?? The "obscure international places" which use nautical miles for distance and meters for depth include . . . hmmm, I guess the entire world, except for the U.S., and maybe some Caribbean countries . . . Charts the world over are marked with depth in meters, and no scale of any kind. You figures miles by putting your dividers to the longitude scale. I've never seen a nautical chart with kilometers marked on it. Miles and meters are simply the only choice for the vast majority of the world.

I'm sure this is just a brain f*rt for which Garmin have gotten wagonloads of grief for by now; Pete, expect a rush software update any day now. The U.S. might be Garmin's biggest market, but they will not want to lose the entire rest of the world with a brain-dead move like this. I presume some pimply programmer at Garmin who doesn't even own a passport just assumed (as we say, "assume" is "ass" out of "u" and "me") that "obscure furriners" use kilometers at sea. Why, they use 'em on the road, don't they?
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Old 20-06-2014, 03:11   #262
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This is probably worth a separate thread.

Another downside is that also like computers, they crash more often. I guess the development cycle is much shorter and they do less debugging, plus the software is incomparably more complex than it used to be. My old Raymarine RL80CRC+ Pathfinder gear never, ever, once even crashed, much less did I have any problem or failure, in years of use. The Zeus touch crashes fairly regularly, sometimes needing the power to be cut to it to get it back on line.
Now put this in the context of the debate of the regulators how to aboard the question of electronic charting system (ECS) and electronic charts as the sole media for navigation for NON-Solas vessels or pleasure crafts - no more paper charts any longer.

The autopilot that turns 90 degrees because of a faulty plotter software.....

Do not like the idea that we should accept buggy systems (or get used to them).

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Old 20-06-2014, 05:42   #263
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
....... The Zeus touch crashes fairly regularly, sometimes needing the power to be cut to it to get it back on line.

To my mind it's all worth it and this is actually progress ....
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. Chartplotter/Radars are part of safety critical devices onboard and should not crash, let alone should not crash fairly regularly. Vote with your dollars or euros and purchase CPs from suppliers that don't crash fairly regularly.
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Old 20-06-2014, 06:24   #264
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. Chartplotter/Radars are part of safety critical devices onboard and should not crash, let alone should not crash fairly regularly. Vote with your dollars or euros and purchase CPs from suppliers that don't crash fairly regularly.
Of course I wish my plotters didn't crash. I have a few complaints about them, and this is one.

But I don't agree that chartplotters must be safety critical devices. I have paper and the skills to use it, and I always have a backup plotter (IPlod with INavX charged and in the cockpit). The only time a plotter crash could be a serious safety issue is right in the middle of transiting a difficult unbuoyed spot where you are relying solely on the plotter (no pre-planned clearing bearings, clearing waypoints, etc.). That's, what, 2% of sailing time? At most? And for that case I can have the IFod fired up in about 15 seconds.

At sea it's no big deal to reboot the plotter.

Still, of course, they really should improve that situation.
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Old 20-06-2014, 06:29   #265
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Now put this in the context of the debate of the regulators how to aboard the question of electronic charting system (ECS) and electronic charts as the sole media for navigation for NON-Solas vessels or pleasure crafts - no more paper charts any longer.

The autopilot that turns 90 degrees because of a faulty plotter software.....

Do not like the idea that we should accept buggy systems (or get used to them).

Hubert
A lot of recreational sailors don't carry paper anymore.

It's a different thread and a different debate, but I don't believe that this is really good seamanship.

I think many sailors have a lot of independent backups. I have, besides the main electronic nav system, an IPlaid with INavX and Navionics charts, and a laptop with OpenCPN and CM93 charts. I think even my smartphone would show some kind of map, at least Google Earth, which would help pilotage if you lost all your other systems. So although I still believe in having paper on board, and using it, perhaps it should not be criminalized not to have it.
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Old 20-06-2014, 07:11   #266
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Of course I wish my plotters didn't crash. I have a few complaints about them, and this is one.

But I don't agree that chartplotters must be safety critical devices. I have paper and the skills to use it, and I always have a backup plotter (IPlod with INavX charged and in the cockpit). The only time a plotter crash could be a serious safety issue is right in the middle of transiting a difficult unbuoyed spot where you are relying solely on the plotter (no pre-planned clearing bearings, clearing waypoints, etc.). That's, what, 2% of sailing time? At most? And for that case I can have the IFod fired up in about 15 seconds.

At sea it's no big deal to reboot the plotter.

Still, of course, they really should improve that situation.
In your case, if your plotter crashes, so does your radar and possibly your only AIS display - so there is an added criticality to it. If a plotter is also the main distribution for instrument data to other devices, that also adds another criticality.

Our Furuno has never crashed in the 3 years we have owned it, nor has it gone funky in anyway during operation. I would consider a chartplotter that crashed regularly as defective and have it back in the manufacturer's hands for repair/replacement/money back ASAP. If they told me it was normal to crash even occasionally, I would simply ask for my money back and go elsewhere.

I don't buy into regular crashing of anything as an integral component of advancement or progress. I don't put up with computers or other consumer devices that do so (I just checked and my macbookpro has been running for 3 months now without a reboot) - and I definitely would not put up with a navigation device that did so.

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Old 20-06-2014, 07:27   #267
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pirate Re: Thoughts about AIS

Once I thought there was a glitch and my paper chart crashed, but close inspection revealed it as just a bit of coffee and bagel. Was quickly fixed with wet paper towel and thankfully didn't happen in one of those moments out in the ocean when split second timing of the turns required to avoid islands is so critical that standard time pieces are unable to measure it.
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Old 20-06-2014, 11:55   #268
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Of course I wish my plotters didn't crash. I have a few complaints about them, and this is one.

But I don't agree that chartplotters must be safety critical devices. I have paper and the skills to use it, and I always have a backup plotter (IPlod with INavX charged and in the cockpit). The only time a plotter crash could be a serious safety issue is right in the middle of transiting a difficult unbuoyed spot where you are relying solely on the plotter (no pre-planned clearing bearings, clearing waypoints, etc.). That's, what, 2% of sailing time? At most? And for that case I can have the IFod fired up in about 15 seconds.

At sea it's no big deal to reboot the plotter.

Still, of course, they really should improve that situation.
You are way too tolerant of crappy software development and sales practices. You are right, that CP failures don't have to be safety critical. They are only safety critical when the safety of the boat coincides with the failure
On my previous boat I had an early version of the Furuno Navnet3D with the first release of SW. We were crossing a narrow, constricted traffic separation zone at night. No AIS hooked up at this time. I spotted a very fast moving target coming down the lane. At first I thought it was a low flying seaplane. Found the target on the radar and the ARPA had it going 24kts. It was the highspeed Victoria, BC to Seattle ferry. We were crossing at right angles to the lane and I was trying to figure out if we needed to do something to get out of this guys way. The CP crashed, killing my Radar. If that wasn't bad enough, the device automatically rebooted, with its reboot screen at full brightness, killing the night vision in the cockpit. We got a cover over the CP and passed just behind the ferry.

Furuno came out with a new SW release within a month. Ditch those vendors that sell you crap software.
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Old 20-06-2014, 13:42   #269
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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In your case, if your plotter crashes, so does your radar and possibly your only AIS display - so there is an added criticality to it. If a plotter is also the main distribution for instrument data to other devices, that also adds another criticality.

Our Furuno has never crashed in the 3 years we have owned it, nor has it gone funky in anyway during operation. I would consider a chartplotter that crashed regularly as defective and have it back in the manufacturer's hands for repair/replacement/money back ASAP. If they told me it was normal to crash even occasionally, I would simply ask for my money back and go elsewhere.

I don't buy into regular crashing of anything as an integral component of advancement or progress. I don't put up with computers or other consumer devices that do so (I just checked and my macbookpro has been running for 3 months now without a reboot) - and I definitely would not put up with a navigation device that did so.

Mark
Well I have two Zeuses, so if one goes down, the other one will still be working.

My network is almost 100% N2K, including even AIS (unlike Furuno, Navico plotters will accept AIS data over N2K), so the only data which gets passed through a plotter is boat speed.

I agree it's poor, but I'm stuck with it -- warranty is over. I'm hoping that the next software release might improve things.

And don't get me wrong -- it doesn't crash every day. More like once a month, maybe once in two months, a soft crash which can be fixed by powering down and rebooting at the unit, and only once or twice ever did I have to power off at the panel. That's running 24/7 -- I'm living on board since April and always have the network powered up.

I will be getting AIS on GoFree (if I can ever get it to work), in INavX, and in OpenCPN, so I don't depend on the plotters for that.
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Old 20-06-2014, 13:46   #270
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Once I thought there was a glitch and my paper chart crashed, but close inspection revealed it as just a bit of coffee and bagel. Was quickly fixed with wet paper towel and thankfully didn't happen in one of those moments out in the ocean when split second timing of the turns required to avoid islands is so critical that standard time pieces are unable to measure it.
Tee hee.

That was pretty funny.
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