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Old 15-06-2014, 07:27   #151
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
......
I think this always boils down to one thing - people unconsciously (or maybe even consciously) bothered that their higher perceived gained level of "ability" over others is easily wiped out by a technology. Therefore, they project that that technology causes problems and anyone using it (except them) are forced into lobotomies by it.
...
I thought it was probably age that caused my spontaneous lobotomy. Now I find out from the double blind CF sponsored studies that it was the unexplained aura emitting from my Vesper AIS display. It has definitely gotten worse now that I leave the display on while at anchor for its Anchor Watch capabilities. I think (no studies yet) the amount of time the AIS is on is directly proportional to the potential damage. Hopefully they will come out with an iDevice that can at least slow the degradation.
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Old 15-06-2014, 08:28   #152
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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And we have gone there again! Yet another thread lost to fear of electronics being the cause of stupidity. Now it is AIS that has joined the ranks with integrated autopilots and GPS chartplotters? Worrying that if people get an AIS it will cause them to actually start running into things? Two posters here have actually said that! Making people stupid and causing them to forget other basic seamanship?

I think this always boils down to one thing - people unconsciously (or maybe even consciously) bothered that their higher perceived gained level of "ability" over others is easily wiped out by a technology. Therefore, they project that that technology causes problems and anyone using it (except them) are forced into lobotomies by it.

It seems to come down to whether one's self-image is threatened by a technology or not.

Mark
Mark, your words seem loaded with innuendo that I do not feel. I celebrate new technology and embrace its potential to make safe passages easier. But basic seamanship is a learned skill not a purchased one .

In the wrong or uneducated hands any tool can become a weapon..... Or do you think that is wrong and I am just posturing??
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Old 15-06-2014, 08:53   #153
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
.
In the wrong or uneducated hands any tool can become a weapon..... Or do you think that is wrong and I am just posturing??
Of course that is the case. It is so in everything, and has been so since stone and stick tools. It is so much a truth that it doesn't need to be brought up - ever. I have seen people ruining equipment with an electric drill because they had not had many years of experience with gauging torque using a hand drill. I have seen people who did have that experience also ruin things with electric drills.

Why aren't people talking about the dangers of electric drills?

Do you think it is best if "the wrong or uneducated hands" did not have AIS? Chartplotters? GPS? Autopilots? Radar?

And I wasn't using innuendo - you made this statement: "Just wondering if we are getting into AIS assisted collisions due to overconfidence with their use by some operators?"

That thought would never occur to me. I personally believe all of the above, in as many hands as possible, have made everyone safer overall.

I also believe there is no preventing or stopping stupidity, or ensuring an equal knowledge and skill base.

Mark
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Old 15-06-2014, 09:20   #154
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Mark...I am probably one of those people who can be dangerous with an electric drill since it was never my professional craft.. However, safe navigation was.

In my lifetime studies on new navigational technology there was always a common mistake made at the beginning.

For example....When radar first came out, some believed it would solve human errors of judgement and end collisions at sea
Of course it didn't and in some cases when the operator confidently misinterpreted the information given...or the limitations of the equipment...... The phrase "Radar assisted collision" was used in the Inquiry.

I believe that can and will happen with AIS....but it will also help the vast majority of WKs to make the right decision.

I think discussing operator errors is a valid part of any AIS discussion.
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Old 15-06-2014, 09:33   #155
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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I think discussing operator errors is a valid part of any AIS discussion.
I think it is futile. And where does it end in anything? A better use of electrons would be discussing how to get the most out of a technology (as parts of this thread has done very well) - not worrying that a technology itself will cause problems and send people to danger.

And certainly not to the point of pining away about the good ole days when everyone had seawater in their veins and climbed up the learning ropes with barnacle-covered hands - and now all the rich careless people are instantly out there presenting dangers to everyone and everything.

That last was definitely not pointed at you! It was just a bit of a rant carried over from reading some other threads over the past.

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Old 15-06-2014, 09:40   #156
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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I think discussing operator errors is a valid part of any AIS discussion.
RTFM - doesn't happen all that often / enough / as much as it should.

Goes along with: "I don't know anything about electrical but here goes..."

Disclaimer: This message has been brought to you by a skipper (me) who had to say RTFM about himself over on the Integrating AP topic!

There's also this: a whole new generation (not anchors!!!) of skippers who don't get manuals [as in: I don't understand AND they do NOT give you a manual with your new equipment, you have to go online] and who have learned how to push the right buttons and somehow (don't ask me how) they get the equipment to work. Most often seen on phones and computers. It's in the genes?
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Old 15-06-2014, 09:47   #157
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
In my lifetime studies on new navigational technology there was always a common mistake made at the beginning.

For example....When radar first came out, some believed it would solve human errors of judgement and end collisions at sea
Of course it didn't and in some cases when the operator confidently misinterpreted the information given...or the limitations of the equipment...... The phrase "Radar assisted collision" was used in the Inquiry.

I believe that can and will happen with AIS....but it will also help the vast majority of WKs to make the right decision.

I think discussing operator errors is a valid part of any AIS discussion.
I believe You are right, Pelagic.
At the same time I can not see nothing wrong in Mark's comments.
Any tool can be used right or wrong way.
The unproper use of any tool can be dangerous.
There are not idiot proof tools.
The misuse of the tools by somebody is not the reason to abandon the use of the tool.
And so on, and so on....

But now we are drifting far away from the topic of this thread, and the topic itself is really interesting.

I personally do read this topic as:

"How should the chartplotters be improved to make best use of AIS data available".

As it is often a case the thread title is much broader than the issues laid out in the original post.

On the other hand the thread:
"How the misuse of electronic navigational aids can lead to catastrophic or near catastrophic results" would be very interesting, at least in my opinion. I really hope You will start such a thread for benefit of all here, as You are really competent to make the starting post for such a thread and to draw a boundaries for organized discussion. I'm looking forward to it, always keen to learn.

I just think it will be more useful to discuss these topics in two threads, not in one.

Cheers,

Tomasz
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Old 15-06-2014, 10:06   #158
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
On the other hand the thread:
"How the misuse of electronic navigational aids can lead to catastrophic or near catastrophic results" would be very interesting, at least in my opinion.
That title is self-fulfilling by definition. Any thread around the "misuse of XXX leading to problems" is just going to be full of examples of misusing something - real or imagined.

Likewise, a thread titled "proper use of XXX can keep one out of problems" would not be much use.

Maybe a thread around "what are navigational gotcha's not readily apparent when properly using XXX" might have some value, as long as the content didn't veer off into wild hypotheticals and the contributor refrained from falling back into the misuse, or blaming, of XXX.

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Old 15-06-2014, 11:11   #159
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

I apologize.... I guess Dockhead's complicated title.... "Thoughts about AIS" mislead me....
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Old 15-06-2014, 11:58   #160
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
And we have gone there again! Yet another thread lost to fear of electronics being the cause of stupidity. Now it is AIS that has joined the ranks with integrated autopilots and GPS chartplotters? Worrying that if people get an AIS it will cause them to actually start running into things? Two posters here have actually said that! Making people stupid and causing them to forget other basic seamanship?

I think this always boils down to one thing - people unconsciously (or maybe even consciously) bothered that their higher perceived gained level of "ability" over others is easily wiped out by a technology. Therefore, they project that that technology causes problems and anyone using it (except them) are forced into lobotomies by it.

It seems to come down to whether one's self-image is threatened by a technology or not.

Mark
Jeez, total misinterpretation of what I said. I guess I must have expressed myself extremely poorly.

I think AIS is the best thing since sliced bread, and how many times have I written about. I also think that chartplotters are the absolute tits -- I would so much not like to ever sail without one ever again, that I have backups to my chartplotters. No technophobia here whatsoever.

No one said AIS causes collisions. What Pelagic and I were both saying is that the incorrect use of it can cause collisions. More exactly -- the naive and oversimplified reliance on it without interpreting what it says. Did you read the Wahkuna report? A sailboat was run down and sunk because the master of a ship took the CPA on his $250,000 ARPA system as given, without interpreting the information and understanding its limitations. And because the skipper of the sailboat didn't understand whether the ship was passing ahead or behind and "just stopped" as many advocate. The report goes into great detail about why you need to interpret what ARPA says -- and all the same arguments apply to AIS.

Saying that is NOT to condemn technology, merely the naive and improper use of it -- very different things.
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Old 15-06-2014, 12:38   #161
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

just to clarify when I said, 'if in doubt, STOP' This was because this advice was drilled into me as a student during my coxswains certificate course, and though not always the best thing to do, it is usually the best thing to do IF you are unsure of any navigation. It will give you and other vessels more time to take proper action. The skipper you mentioned who thought he was passing behind and stopped, well obviously if you are seeing both red and green its not prudent to stop. Had he stopped a few minutes earlier when the passing seemed to be uncertain..a whole different story/outcome. The duty of the stand on vessel is to maintain course and speed but the priority is to avoid close quarters situations. Pretty obvious but I just wanted to clarify..
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Old 15-06-2014, 13:17   #162
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Getting back to ways that AIS could be presented better in a multiple ship English Channel scenerio
.... it is worth studying Sperry Marines original solution of PAD displays for their ARPA radars back in the 80's.
This was seen by all as the best visual display to avoid Planned (or Predicted) Areas of Danger if you had a number of ships to consider and avoid

The screen would show shifting trapezoidal boxes (PADS) for each target with a Line from each corresponding PAD to its owner target.
All you had to do was steer away from any box and you would stay safe!

Hailed as major breakthrough it was patented by Sperry and kept mostly for military use, not being competitively devoloped for commercial use.

That same display technology could now be used even better with AIS to guide vessel's away from danger zones that the captain sets for his personal CPA comfort level.
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Old 15-06-2014, 13:19   #163
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

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just to clarify when I said, 'if in doubt, STOP' This was because this advice was drilled into me as a student during my coxswains certificate course, and though not always the best thing to do, it is usually the best thing to do IF you are unsure of any navigation. It will give you and other vessels more time to take proper action. The skipper you mentioned who thought he was passing behind and stopped, well obviously if you are seeing both red and green its not prudent to stop. Had he stopped a few minutes earlier when the passing seemed to be uncertain..a whole different story/outcome. The duty of the stand on vessel is to maintain course and speed but the priority is to avoid close quarters situations. Pretty obvious but I just wanted to clarify..
I completely agree, of course.


The best time to do it is before a "risk of collision" arises -- then it's absolutely the perfect maneuver for a situation where you don't understand what to do. Once you're in sailing & steering rules, and especially if you're supposed to be standing on, it might not be the right thing to do.
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Old 15-06-2014, 13:36   #164
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Getting back to ways that AIS could be presented better in a multiple ship English Channel scenerio
.... it is worth studying Sperry Marines original solution of PAD displays for their ARPA radars back in the 80's.
This was seen by all as the best visual display to avoid Planned (or Predicted) Areas of Danger if you had a number of ships to consider and avoid

The screen would show shifting trapezoidal boxes (PADS) for each target with a Line from each corresponding PAD to its owner target.
All you had to do was steer away from any box and you would stay safe!

Hailed as major breakthrough it was patented by Sperry and kept mostly for military use, not being competitively devoloped for commercial use.

That same display technology could now be used even better with AIS to guide vessel's away from danger zones that the captain sets for his personal CPA comfort level.
Yes -- that sounds really good, a really intelligent solution. Or you could just do it as Vesper does, which sounds really good to me, and perhaps simpler. At this point, I would be deliriously happy with either.
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Old 16-06-2014, 04:45   #165
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Re: Thoughts about AIS

Having identified the collision danger and where you are the stand on vessel and the ship is doing nothing there comes the difficult decision - shall I wait a few minutes for him to move as surely he will or should I turn anyway. After a few more minutes it becomes urgent. I'd better call him and ask him for his intentions or maybe I should turn anyway. Then comes the fumble with tapping through clumsy DSC menus and finding, noting and entering the code and waiting whilst the watch officer puts his coffee down. By that time he has done nothing and it really is necessary for someone to take some kind of action....

What would be really useful is a way of hitting the icon on the screen and making a DSC call instantly. Is there a way of doing this?
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