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Old 14-06-2011, 21:56   #61
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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I am getting confused by what you are saying.
You sure are and I'm not saying anything. I just quoted a line from the KISS website and if you don't understand that line, I can't help you with that.

I do read it as meaning you must stretch out the KISS counterpoise and not keep it coiled up which is what you seem to read.

So, instead of asking a 1000 questions, go out and research and study this yourself. You can even buy one or two and do all the tests you want to be done. I for sure don't have the energy or time to answer all your questions...

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 15-06-2011, 01:55   #62
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi Nick OK, I just thought that you knew what the KISS was doing thats why I asked all the questions. Anyway I have done my own homework and read the KISS web page several times. I think I have got it. They refer to the system as a tuned radial system. They use the analogy of tuning forks. Whats in the tube is supposed to emulate resonant radials in a tuned counterpoise system. The installation information suggest that the systems should run like a radial and it does not matter that it twists, turns or makes a U turn bend. So its installed like a single RADIAL that has a hose housing of 9'10inches and a connecting lead of 47 inches. So the overall length of the KISS is 13ft and a bit of radial wire thats folded upon itself. Looking at Chips's pictures, it looks the kiss has 5 lengths of wire folded up multiple times. Anyway I agree with Chip's assessment that the system cannot function as explained on the KISS web page. My assessment is that it behaves like a single 13 ft radial and thats it. Talking about resonance and inductance is just causing unnecessary confusion. But hey like I said, if you happy paying the price for what is the electrical equivalent of a 13 ft piece of wire and it works for you so be it. You cant achieve resonance across a broad frequency range with such a haphazard collection of wires inserted into a tube. The so called coil counterpoise theory is a very old ham radio concept. Many hams have tried this concept when installing radios in a limited space. Hams would however use either a proper helical wound inductor that is tapped for different frequencies or install a tuning variable inductor between the counterpoise and the ground connection. This system would have to be tuned on every frequency you change too. Anything attached to the ground lug of the antenna tuner be it a radial or a baking pan will have capacitance to the ground, in this case seawater. So the KISS will satisfy the requirement of having some kind of counterpoise. Whether this is an efficient counterpoise or not I will leave that question to the recognized SSB experts. In short, a short strip of foil attached to a seacock or grounding shoe is probably performing the same function as the KISS. Since its ""connected"" to the seawater it should be more efficient. A system of foil strips in a bonded system would also seem on paper to be a much more efficient ground system. The real question now is what constitutes a 100% efficient ground system and where on this efficiency scale ranking we should be place the KISS counterpoise radial. Again I will leave that question to be answered by the recognized SSB experts. Finally if it was my money I would not be spending it on the KISS, simply because I can achieve much more with other methods for less money and I dont believe it works as described on the companies web page. Anyway this has been a very interesting discussion, thanks for your help. Ciao Jurgen
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You sure are and I'm not saying anything. I just quoted a line from the KISS website and if you don't understand that line, I can't help you with that.

I do read it as meaning you must stretch out the KISS counterpoise and not keep it coiled up which is what you seem to read.

So, instead of asking a 1000 questions, go out and research and study this yourself. You can even buy one or two and do all the tests you want to be done. I for sure don't have the energy or time to answer all your questions...

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 15-06-2011, 02:26   #63
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I'm not expert, but I have been a ham since age 15, and have built more than my fair share of antennas, and I've gone to great lengths to build a ground system for my existing stuff.

My question is that if the concept is such an amazing thing, why isn't it in any of the antenna manuals, and why don't we see it the world over in terrestrial ham stations? You can't judge an antenna's effectiveness based on it's SWR. My dummy load has a 1:1 SWR, but I can never compete with the big guns with it.

Interestingly enough, my screwdriver antenna on my truck is pretty iffy performance-wise until I go park at the beach-front lot, at which point I can get a great launch out of it. I know I'm not alone because I've seen more a few other hams parked in that lot doing the same. Just being in the general vicinity of the salt water makes a crappy antenna perform *much* better.

If you feel better about spending the money, that's great. If you think it's a horrible waste, so be it. But I think you're going to go crazy trying to understand it, because I have the sneaking suspicion that the answer is less complicated than you think.

JRM
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Old 20-08-2011, 09:53   #64
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

with all due respect to your knowledge, it's fine for you techies out there to discuss the pros/cons, validity, etc of the KISS unit. For those of us who aren't so knowledgeable or inclined, KISS makes perfect sense. I just got mine, haven't installed it yet, but I love the fact that I just place it down and forget it. No future worries about corroded copper, no having to tear my lockers apart to install copper foil, plus figure out how to join them up, then get a good connection to a thru hull. In fact, zero issues that have plagued us non tech types.
Completely hassle free. Some of us just want to communicate, not invent the radio all over again.
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Old 20-08-2011, 10:46   #65
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

We just installed our 802 and posted the installation on our Beach House website. The KISS system made this the easiest install I have done and I have done dozens. The results have been better than I expected and we are extremely pleased with the installation with the KISS. BTW, our install post is not very technical. Chuck
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Old 20-08-2011, 11:57   #66
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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If you feel better about spending the money, that's great. If you think it's a horrible waste, so be it. But I think you're going to go crazy trying to understand it, because I have the sneaking suspicion that the answer is less complicated than you think.

JRM
I'm not sure where you're coming with this thought, but the copper required to install a ground on our boat was about 5X's as much as the KISS, PLUS it needs to be replaced every 3-5 years; so where's the value in Not installing a KISS? I believe the answer is just that simple.
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Old 20-08-2011, 14:00   #67
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

This is where he is coming from: There is no evidence, so far, that the KISS is actually more effective than a single 14 ft piece of wire similarly placed in the bilge. The inventor, simply saying so, doesn't make it so.

I haven't been able to identify anything unique, electrically, about the KISS. Maybe someone else can, I'm open to the science. That is all this thread is about. Its not about whether anyone can contact Lesser Bokchito using a KISS or not.

Many cruisers are averse to spending $150 when they can come up with an equivalent for far less. Others are happy to spend the money and not think about it any more. This thread gives information to the former, even if it somehow offends the latter.
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Old 20-08-2011, 16:44   #68
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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I'm not sure where you're coming with this thought, but the copper required to install a ground on our boat was about 5X's as much as the KISS, PLUS it needs to be replaced every 3-5 years; so where's the value in Not installing a KISS? I believe the answer is just that simple.

I am curious about the statement that the copper gound strap needs to be relpaced every 3-5 years. Ground strap on my boat is much older that this, potentially 35 yrs old and with the exception of a little surface patina in some places appears to be in very good condition. Should I be concerned ?
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Old 20-08-2011, 18:13   #69
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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I am curious about the statement that the copper gound strap needs to be relpaced every 3-5 years. Ground strap on my boat is much older that this, potentially 35 yrs old and with the exception of a little surface patina in some places appears to be in very good condition. Should I be concerned ?

We have found on our own installation and that of others that 3-5 years is about the time the signal begins to degrade because of corrosion of the strap. It may be subtle at first but it is definitely there. It may be only sections or it may be connections, but sometimes cleaning up will do and other times replacement. It will depend on the amount of corrosion. The dryer the bilge the less the problem. Chuck
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Old 20-08-2011, 18:17   #70
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Thank you.

By the way does anyone know of a fitting that will allow me to attach another length of copper strap to the existing run?
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Old 20-08-2011, 18:24   #71
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

The copper strap found in electronics stores is much too thin, and will corrode quickly in the marine environment unless protected somehow (e.g., coated with varnish or West System or similar preparation).

Much better to use 16oz soft copper which you can easily find at any roofing store. It's used for flashing. Comes in various widths, and is easily cut with metal shears.

Bill
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Old 21-08-2011, 20:50   #72
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

As a 'retread' ham I've found this thread fascinating.
We're contemplating our first 'bigger' boat and HF is on the list of things to put in it. I'm favouring a so called 'rope' antenna and the question of a counterpoise is complicated by the fact we are contemplating ferro hulled boats. There is some suggestion that poor planning of the HF installation/antenna/counterpoise could cause RF induced electrolytic effects to the armature, however others say it's irrelevant because the armature is completely sealed in the cement. An obvious counterpoise would be a simple connection from the ATU to the armature and I've no doubt it would be an excellent one, assuming the rest of the armature is isolated from water. The question is, would it do damage? How do ferro boat owners deal with the question of a counterpoise? Any evidence of armature damage from electrolytic effects due to RF or even DC power issues? Safeguards? Work arounds?

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Old 26-08-2011, 18:32   #73
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

There are no miracle antennas, as the AARL and other groups have repeatedly said and shown by testing and in some cases, xrays to determine what is inside a "miracle" device.

It would seem that the ISS SSB folks are simply saying that they have put eight 1/4 wave inductively tuned/trapped pieces of wire in one sealed PVC tube, so that there will be one tuned counterpoise for each band and the other seven will be uncoupled.

No miracles there. And not a very good solution, compared to using multiple tuned radials (counterpoises) for each band. However, ONE tuned counterpoise is always going to beat the hell out of no tuned counterpoise, or one raggy length of corroded copper.

You know, a Ford Pinto is a lousy car, but it beats all hell out of walking a thousand miles.

The KISS-SSB appears to be somewhat of a compromise. Install three or eight of them and spread them out, and you've have a really nice tuned counterpoise system, they way that many or most vertical antenna makers tell you to install counterpoises!

One of many solutions and one of many reasons why pretty much every "expert", including Gordon West, has said that a successful HF installation on a sailboat will always require experimenting, as no two boats (even one-designs) are ever quite identical when it comes to electrical characteristics.

Corroded copper foil? Just says that someone doesn't understand why it should have been PAINTED or COATED to prevent basic chemical weathering. Radio is all physics, it follows rules even if you don't know or understand them. Which is at your own peril.
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Old 26-08-2011, 19:35   #74
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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There are no miracle antennas, as the AARL and other groups have repeatedly said and shown by testing and in some cases, xrays to determine what is inside a "miracle" device.
LOL, on that I can agree, it's not miraculous. A wise man (Heinlein) once wrote that 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' The 'sufficiently advanced' part depends on the technical savvy of the distinguishing person.

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
It would seem that the ISS SSB folks are simply saying that they have put eight 1/4 wave inductively tuned/trapped pieces of wire in one sealed PVC tube, so that there will be one tuned counterpoise for each band and the other seven will be uncoupled.
Yes, that was my interpretation.

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
No miracles there. And not a very good solution, compared to using multiple tuned radials (counterpoises) for each band. However, ONE tuned counterpoise is always going to beat the hell out of no tuned counterpoise, or one raggy length of corroded copper.
Without a doubt. I'll probably try something along the lines of multiple tuned radials. The boat is ferro (bought a 35' ketch yesterday) so bolting something to the hull metal is not an option.

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You know, a Ford Pinto is a lousy car, but it beats all hell out of walking a thousand miles.
You should see the POS I'm driving to Sydney to pick the boat up lol.
(Cost me $150 - draw your own conclusions)

[QUOTE=hellosailor;760235]The KISS-SSB appears to be somewhat of a compromise. Install three or eight of them and spread them out, and you've have a really nice tuned counterpoise system, they way that many or most vertical antenna makers tell you to install counterpoises![/QUOTE

Sure.

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One of many solutions and one of many reasons why pretty much every "expert", including Gordon West, has said that a successful HF installation on a sailboat will always require experimenting, as no two boats (even one-designs) are ever quite identical when it comes to electrical characteristics.
No argument. That can even apply to terrestrial operations. I worked at a tv station that was built on a site called 'Rocky Hill'. It was well named.
Try getting decent RF grounding from a simple earth stake. Didn't happen. We ended up with multiple earth stakes and a dripper system to 'water the earth' around each one. That worked pretty well. IF we noticed RF drifting through the image or even 50hz it was a sign we needed to go out and water the earth because on of the drippers was probably clogged.

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Corroded copper foil? Just says that someone doesn't understand why it should have been PAINTED or COATED to prevent basic chemical weathering. Radio is all physics, it follows rules even if you don't know or understand them. Which is at your own peril.
I thought it odd it was left bare. The laws of physics don't care if you don't understand them. This sometimes kills the unwary.

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Old 26-08-2011, 19:49   #75
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

A never ending story; oh wait the KISS works wonderfully, end of story.
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