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Old 13-06-2011, 15:34   #46
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

John -

When I had it here at home, I should have done what you suggest using the radial field for my ground mounted vertical, which is 36 symmetrically spaced copper wires each 33 feet in length. I may just have to bring it back from the boat next time to do this too.

Chip
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Old 13-06-2011, 16:19   #47
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

All you will find is that you have a 9ft tall vertical antenna thats going to resonate around 27mhz. 9ft on 27mhz is about a 1/4 wavelength. I would install the KISS attached to a fiberglass pole. Knock a tent peg in the ground for a earth. Sweep the KISS with the impedance analyzer and find the 0 reactance point. That should be the resonant frequency of the KISS. From there you can work out the ground loss resistance based on the impedance. Attach another KISS in place of the tent peg and you will work out how efficient it is, very simple. I would then compare it to 9ft piece wire which is used in place of the KISS. I would guess that impedance and reactance will be roughly the same because we all KNOW that a 9ft piece of wire will not change the ground loss by much. Stuffing 600 ft of wire in the tube wont change much. Frankly speaking, using the KISS over seawater ground is the saving grace. We all know seawater is the best possible RF ground. Now if you attached a 9ft piece of wet rope to the ground terminal of the tuner the system will work simply because you operating over seawater! Sailors who use a ground shoe or dynaplate ground are using a SHORT KISS ground that behaves no differently from the KISS. The ground strap from the tuner to the ground shoe behaves exactly like the KISS. People have used the ground shoe/dynplate ground for years without complaint! My bet is that the KISS will be nowhere resonant near the length of wire stuffed down the tube? How could it be. The sensible hams or engineers in here would have known the answer to this! If you stuff 600 foot of wire into a 9ft length of tube you only have a 9ft antenna. Thats the laws of physics! A helical whip antenna operates on the same principle. You might have 200 ft of wire on the antenna stick however it still is only a 9ft antenna. How can the KISS be more efficient than a linear wound helical antenna? Ham stick yagis and dipoles have been tried and we know they suck as antennas when compared to a full size dipole or yagi. It does not matter what side of the 2 terminal circuit you have the 9ft piece of wire, antenna side or ground side. Its a 9ft piece of wire electrically regardless of how many feet is stuffed into the tube. You cant pass the KISS ground off as an inductor or linear loading. This is just a bunch of wires that does or cant electrically lengthen the antenna or ground side. RF will only see 9ft of wire and not the total amount of wire stuffed up the tube. I bet if you stuck a accurate impedance analyzer on the test antenna and switched in a 9ft piece of wire and then the KISS ground the impedance and reactance will be roughly similar. There will be stray capacitance between the many wires which will slightly alter the results. The final impedance will be the radiation resistance plus ground loss. That should give you the answer! What I also dont see being discussed is the inclusion of the feedline in the ground side of the equation. Since the backstay is operating as a end fed wire who knows where ground really is? Has anyone fed the backstay directly and included a 5000 ohms common mode choke? After you have fed the antenna without the antenna tuner as a resonant antenna, switch in the KISS and measure the impedance and reactance. My bet is that its no better than a 9ft piece of wire! You cant say the kiss is working effectively as ground if you have an antenna tuner in line feeding a end fed backstay. Maybe all you have done is created OFC or windom antenna that does not need a ground? I would say the latter is what is occuring and thats why people find that there is little impact on tuning and SWR. By simply creating a offset feed you have moderated the impedance and reactance over a substantial; slice of the HF spectrum. The impedance and reactance looks much better than the end fed backstay wire antenna. I would remove the antenna tuner, and find the resonant frequency of the backstay alone. It should be a quarter wavelength somewhere in the HF spectrum. Once you have established what frequency the antenna is naturally a 1/4 wavelength you can quickly determine the impact of the KISS ground. Why does this have to be such a complicated exercise. We know the terminal impedance of 1/4 wavelength antenna is 36 ohms. We can measure the impedance of the 1/4 wave vertical with and without the KISS. The impedance will quickly tell you the ground loss resistance with and without the KISS? If this is too hard then maybe someone can get a professional field strength meter and do it the way the FCC does for AM broadcast stations. Simply measure the field strength of the antenna with and without the KISS, very easy. Anyway I have a open mind, however there is lot that does not add up about the KISS in my book. In my mind it is a simple 9ft radial and thats it. If it was something else someone would have a patent on it, or it would have been used as an efficient short antenna. Ask any 160 meter mobile operator, if they create a 120ft antenna on a automobile that fits into a 6ft long whip they would have done that a long time ago!!!!!! KISS = 9ft radial wire thats very expensive! Jurgen
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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Chip,
Well again, thank you for doing all of this.....

And, I have a bit of a short cut idea for you, that wouldn't take much time/effort.....

That is....
Simply string up the KISS-Ground vertically (from a halyard, etc.) and operate it "against ground", just like any (short) vertical antenna (such as whip, backstay, etc.)......
Use your existing rf ground / counterpoise (copper strapping to a direct sea water connection, I believe???) as ground, and the KISS-Ground as the "antenna" under test...
Test / scan it there.....and see what the resonant freq is.....

Although both your rigging and your counterpoise will have an affect on its resonance, this would be the case on any sailboat.....so...
So, this should resolve most of the questions, without the need for purchasing another KISS-Ground.....


Thanks again....

John
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Old 13-06-2011, 17:38   #48
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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Originally Posted by jurgen99 View Post
Thats the laws of physics! [...] Its a 9ft piece of wire electrically regardless of how many feet is stuffed into the tube. You cant pass the KISS ground off as an inductor or linear loading. This is just a bunch of wires that does or cant electrically lengthen the antenna or ground side. RF will only see 9ft of wire and not the total amount of wire stuffed up the tube. [...] KISS = 9ft radial wire thats very expensive! Jurgen
Would you care to elaborate on that, specify the exact law of physics you mean and work out that formula?

My teachers always told me that a coiled up wire is called an inductor but you now state that laws of physics state it isn't...

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 13-06-2011, 18:08   #49
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

If you guys find the headwaters of the Nile, please let me know.

KISS simply works, and I don't care why.
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Old 13-06-2011, 18:39   #50
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi Nick I did not know the KISS was a nice inductor coiled up bit of wire? Is that how you installed yours coiled up all nice and neat? Whats the inductance of the KISS ground? I dont own a KISS ground, so my understanding of the product might be considered limited. I thought the KISS ground was a 4ft piece of wire with radials attached to the end of the terminating wire and then inserted into a length of hose. I never really thought that this represented an inductor. I also thought than an inductor had to have 2 ends thats inserted into a circuit. Where do you attach the other side of the KISS ground too so it looks like an inductor? Or do you get inductance by just having the free end float in the air? Excuse my ignorance. Jurgen
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Would you care to elaborate on that, specify the exact law of physics you mean and work out that formula?

My teachers always told me that a coiled up wire is called an inductor but you now state that laws of physics state it isn't...

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 13-06-2011, 19:06   #51
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Juergen -

I started this thread to try to figure out what the KISS is and isn't since there is a paucity of hard data anywhere. I have been using testing tools and methods that should tell us a bit about the device since rigorous RF field testing really would involve a great deal more work and still be subject to criticism. I didn't want to get into arguments about whether "it works" or not, since many people seem to be quite satisfied with the results they get, feel strongly about it, and have the anecdotes or experience to support it. I don't doubt that people can get a signal out with the KISS - that isn't the point of this thread. I've seen that some out there like to vaguely mock the investigative process. I don't know what the motive there is, but its not my plan to respond to it.

If you re-read some of my earlier posts, you'll see that I have already made some measurements comparing the KISS to a simple 14 foot wire (which is the overall length of the KISS) over ground, and did not find remarkable differences.

I hope to continue with some of the other suggested tests as time and opportunity permit, though I am largely in agreement with your assessment of what it is, and what it isn't.

Chip
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Old 13-06-2011, 19:11   #52
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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Originally Posted by jurgen99 View Post
Hi Nick I did not know the KISS was a nice inductor coiled up bit of wire? Is that how you installed yours coiled up all nice and neat? Whats the inductance of the KISS ground? I dont own a KISS ground, so my understanding of the product might be considered limited. I thought the KISS ground was a 4ft piece of wire with radials attached to the end of the terminating wire and then inserted into a length of hose.
Ah okay... so you need to learn yet what the KISS ground is.

I don't have one but every KISS owner I meet is wildly enthusiastic about it, with very good results while using it on the cruiser nets etc.

I also think the only correct method of testing is to have a boat with the KISS and one or two alternative ground systems, and compare these systems with contacts around the world.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 13-06-2011, 19:48   #53
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Someone not prone to believing marketing hype might compare the KISS "counterpoise" with any old pile of well connected wire thrown into the bilge.

I think the improvements people see are not due to some magic built into the KISS but rather that the installer has renewed some corroded connections. Even better results may have bee achieved by these people if they had simply serviced or rehabilitated a more honest and traditional grounding system.
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Old 14-06-2011, 00:14   #54
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi Chip I agree with your rational and reasoning. I dont care either way if it works or not. I am just interested in the science. It would really be nice if such simple ground device really did work as efficiently as a conventional RF ground. It would certainly save a lot of RF grounding installation headaches. I think the big emotional appeal of the KISS ground system to many professional installers is that it is a real time saver. If in the minds of these installers it works and saves time then its a win win situation. The true RF effectiveness is not that important, time and money is more important! Since every yacht is different, every ground system will effectively be a custom installation job. I can just imagine the trepidation installers face every time a new yacht comes along! The KISS certainly would make life easier by providing a one shoe RF ground size fits all! I have been following these debates on all the different cruising boards for the last 10 years. What I find interesting is that a few years back many of the same people debating this KISS ground were dead against radials and were convinced that short radials were a evil that did not belong on a yacht. Now we have a commercial product that is far less efficient than a bunch of radial wires and everyone is convert to a simple single radial ground. Amazing turn around! I am not surprised since installing radials in a yacht is the same headache as installing foil and bonding.These same people were also keen promoters of installing foil strips all over a yacht and bonding every piece of iron into the system. Now how can it be that such an efficient grid of foil strap radials are all of a sudden such a lousy ground system when theory tells us that it should beat the pants off a KISS ground? A post made by daddle makes a very interesting point. Is it that most installed grounds are so poorly corroded and bonded that they are simply not working as well as first installed? Maybe burying all that copper deep in the bilge surrounded by the many poor RF dielectric materials does detract from its efficiency? We wont know the answer, however it might not be the answer that some installers would want! Most people could achieve the equivalent of the KISS and then some by simply running 1 piece of copper wire from from bow to the stern. Anyhoo, we wont go there! The point is that RF ground loss resistance will be fixed over saltwater and is probably very low meaning anything will work. It will be hard differentiating the efficiency of one ground system from the other, there are just too many variables. If it works satisfactorily for the owner and they are happy so be it. The ground system that is the best will be the one thats the easiest to install. Is that not human nature? At least KISS got something right in its marketing pitch! We have the same conundrum with ham mobile antennas. The least efficient antennas get raving reviews and these antennas are known to be -16db down from the best HF mobile antennas. The owners of these inefficient antennas swear that they can work all the DX in the world and they are very happy. So are they wrong or right? However we all know that working DX is not a measure of efficiency, its just a relative indicator of a set of events and circumstances. I think we have the same problem here. It does not matter what anyone says about the validity of the KISS ground principles, to the owners it works and they are happy. A simple field strength test would give us the answer, but who really cares if its X db down from a properly installed bonded copper foil or ground shoe installation. Its the convenience more than the decibels, it just depends where you sit on the fence. Anyway I wish you well with your investigation of the KISS system. I will be following the investigative reporting with interest. Jurgen \
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Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
Juergen -

I started this thread to try to figure out what the KISS is and isn't since there is a paucity of hard data anywhere. I have been using testing tools and methods that should tell us a bit about the device since rigorous RF field testing really would involve a great deal more work and still be subject to criticism. I didn't want to get into arguments about whether "it works" or not, since many people seem to be quite satisfied with the results they get, feel strongly about it, and have the anecdotes or experience to support it. I don't doubt that people can get a signal out with the KISS - that isn't the point of this thread. I've seen that some out there like to vaguely mock the investigative process. I don't know what the motive there is, but its not my plan to respond to it.

If you re-read some of my earlier posts, you'll see that I have already made some measurements comparing the KISS to a simple 14 foot wire (which is the overall length of the KISS) over ground, and did not find remarkable differences.

I hope to continue with some of the other suggested tests as time and opportunity permit, though I am largely in agreement with your assessment of what it is, and what it isn't.

Chip
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:08   #55
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Jurgen, May I respectfully suggest that you read an introductory text on antenna theory (the ARRL Antenna Book is quite good) to understand the use of tuned inductors in antenna design.
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Old 14-06-2011, 12:41   #56
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

No doubt the bundle of wires in the KISS has some inductance - all wires do. I've not seen any evidence that any inductance that might reside in the KISS bundle is tuned to any practical effect. In any event, its reactance is going to be heavily influenced by its position and placement in the boat, rendering any putative pre-sale "tuning" moot.
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Old 14-06-2011, 15:36   #57
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Let's read that product description again :

Vacations

Quote:
It comprises of a four foot lead that attaches to the "grounding lug" on your tuner and then you just stretch out the remaining 10 feet of 1" diameter tubing that encloses the array of specific lengths of radiating copper wires and coils (nearly 600 feet).
So, where does it say that this is a 9 or 10 feet piece of wire? ... or a single short radial? Where isn't it clear that specific lengths of wire are coiled up inside the tubing or that it is meant to be stretched out?

Also, who says that a "SSB counterpoise" isn't a "traditional and honest" method? Afaik, this is a long time established method, just like buried radials etc.

And this "revealed" thread shows and confirms that what is inside the tube is exactly what is stated to be in there by the manufacturer.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 14-06-2011, 18:58   #58
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I will read the ARRL handbook as you suggest, thanks for the tip. But can you please explain to me in simple English how inductance is being applied to the KISS ground? I am really trying to understand this. Sure inductance can be inserted into a circuit to increase electrical length, or create a tuned circuit etc etc. So tell me how inductance is being applied in the KISS ground? What do you think the total inductance is when KISS is working? It should have some reactance and that inductive reactance will change on every every frequency? I dont see that in the specifications. Is the KISS ground an INDUCTOR that is taking placing of ground? IE are you putting a coil to the ground terminal in place of the radial or other counterpoise? Please explain it to me. Is the radial being turned into an inductor that sits there attached to ground lug like a big coil, is that how its supposed to work? I am must be slow I must be missing something. Jurgen
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Jurgen, May I respectfully suggest that you read an introductory text on antenna theory (the ARRL Antenna Book is quite good) to understand the use of tuned inductors in antenna design.
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Old 14-06-2011, 19:29   #59
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi Nick. OK So you have the 4ft lead with the lug. At the end of this wire you have some other wires in a 10ft long rubber tube. The wires in this tube are folded back and fourth inside this tube. I looked at the picture and i see 2 wire colors that look like 2 pieces of wire that are folded several times inside the tube. Is that right so far? This rubber tube with the wires in it is not meant to be stretched out, it lays there coiled up? This rubber tube must not be stretched out like a radial? Does the KISS work like a traditional radial counterpoise or radial system, yes or no? Or is it meant to be coiled up like an inductor? I am getting confused by what you are saying. We have gone from inductance, inductance in wires, not a radial too its not meant to be stretched out. I am lost at this point. Because I am not sure if the wires in the tubes have little coils in them or its just the inductance of the wire bundle or what. Clear this up for me thanks. As for the length,,, the wire has insulation on them and that reduces electrical length. You also have wires in a small tube in close proximity which this has stray capacitance. So I dont know what all this concoction inside the rubber tube is meant to do. Are you tuning the KISS to some resonant frequency, or is it a non resonant system? In the ideal installation, what is the best practice installation for the KISS? Please tell me that. I will put aside my pre-judgement and prejudice and let you explain how you install a KISS ground in the typical yacht? Jurgen
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Let's read that product description again :

Vacations



So, where does it say that this is a 9 or 10 feet piece of wire? ... or a single short radial? Where isn't it clear that specific lengths of wire are coiled up inside the tubing or that it is meant to be stretched out?

Also, who says that a "SSB counterpoise" isn't a "traditional and honest" method? Afaik, this is a long time established method, just like buried radials etc.

And this "revealed" thread shows and confirms that what is inside the tube is exactly what is stated to be in there by the manufacturer.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 14-06-2011, 20:01   #60
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

The Kiss SSB counterpoise is black mambo jumbo magic that works and if this comment is politically incorrect then we can fall back on jurgen99 and Chips resonating pedantic intrusion into the "who cares" waters of the speculative TOE of the SSB.
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