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Old 10-04-2016, 10:16   #346
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Part-3

Attached the XLS file with the measured values

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File Type: xls KISS-vs-Bronze.xls (10.5 KB, 77 views)
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Old 10-04-2016, 12:44   #347
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Thanks for your findings. I think that is fairly consistent with expectations, i.e. for a shorter than resonant antenna, low ground resistance becomes increasingly critical as the frequency decreases, and the KISS is not so good in that respect.

I am surprised at what is happening around 14 MHz, except that perhaps the KISS is actually acting more like one leg of a 14 MHz resonant dipole than as an RF ground for a monopole. This might explain its poor performance at other frequencies, and is somewhat consistent with its overall length, which is close to 1/4 wave at 14 MHz.

Chip
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:51   #348
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

wad'nwind,
1) I gave up commenting on the KISS here on CF quite some time ago....
(I got tired of trying to explain over and over again, that: anything can work....even no antenna ground / RF ground at all works....it's just a matter of degree / what works better!!!)

But, I do Thank You, for taking the time to do all of this!!


2) My own RF current measurements from a few years ago (on my boat, at 3.6mhz, 8.294mhz, 12.359mhz and 14.300mhz, using my ~ 60' backstay antenna) , showed even wider differences between a direct sea water connection ground (wide copper strap to 2 Dynaplates) versus the KISS....(significantly worse for the KISS)
BUT...

But, as I have written before, I was interested in the antenna system performance (and not looking to debunk the KISS, as I, and others, had already done this before) I measured antenna current directly at the output of my AT-140 (on the GTO-15), using my Delta TCT-N (RF Current sampling transformer) and analog Tek 2265 scope...
So, I have no digital scans / screen shots, nor spread sheets, etc....(just my word that I had significantly more antenna current using my direct sea water antenna ground / rf ground, versus the KISS....I don't have my notes, but best case for the KISS still showed it 50% down...)

{note that the TCT-N is precisely calibrated for use between 0.5mhz and 2.0mhz, but works quite well thru the whole HF band, albeit not calibrated well beyond 5-10mhz...since my use, like yours, was for relative measurements, the lack of precise cal wasn't an issue...}




3) As for your tests/measurements....it's not a big deal, but I'm not clear how your bronze plate and/or Alu plate were connected to the tuner (copper strapping?), nor where your RF current sample was placed (directly at the tuner ground lug?)....
But, again....Thanks for doing this!




4) As for the results on 14mhz....doesn't surprise me at all...
If you look at the various scans of resonance (or rather the lack there of) of the KISS, I posted a few year ago...
You'll see why I'm not surprised!

Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise

You'll see how the KISS doesn't have any real resonances....and how you can make an artificial counterpoise (radials), all by yourself in < 5 minutes, for < $5, that works BETTER than the KISS!!

PLEASE look at that discussion and look at all the spectral scans of various wires, antennas, etc....because I'm hesitant to post 'em all here, as it'll just encourage more argument!

Directly on-point here....
You can see a semi-resonance near 14mhz (14.5mhz or 13.9mhz....depending on the configuration / placement of the KISS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
I am surprised at what is happening around 14 MHz, except that perhaps the KISS is actually acting more like one leg of a 14 MHz resonant dipole than as an RF ground for a monopole. This might explain its poor performance at other frequencies, and is somewhat consistent with its overall length, which is close to 1/4 wave at 14 MHz.
Chip


Again, thanks to Chip for starting this whole discussion!

Fair winds to all!

John
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Old 14-04-2016, 10:26   #349
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Dear John & Chip,

The pictures from John are since 2013 already in my archive, they are the only reference material available.
I shall give some additional answers to the questions from John.

3)
The Sinter bronze plate was connected with a 1,5 meter 50mm2 braided copper band to the tuner.
The Aluminium plate was connected with almost 3 meter of 50mm2 braided copper band.
The Kiss was connected with his own yellow wire direct to the tuner.

The current was each time measured directly under the antenna tuner, within 5 cm from the tuner.

With regards, Jugo
PE1DHI
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Old 14-04-2016, 11:23   #350
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Are you using a current meter or a power meter? They two are significantly different in how they work.
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Old 14-04-2016, 12:50   #351
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I'll bet it is a power meter which assumes a 50 ohm impedance. In that instance it would just be indicating relative current, but that is still enough information to judge relative performance. The lower the ground resistance the better, and the higher will be current that flows.
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Old 14-04-2016, 15:44   #352
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

A power meter indicates forward and reflected power. It is not a current measurement. Forward or reflected power on the ground wire is a not germane to determining radiated power.
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Old 14-04-2016, 17:10   #353
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Ground current is directly related to antenna efficiency. If the transmitter is putting out a fixed and same amount of power in each test, that is what is exiting the antenna tuner and going into the antenna/ground system, minus some fairly small fraction of tuner matching losses.

How much of that power is radiated, and how much is lost to resistive losses in the ground half of the system (and to a lesser extent in the pure resistive losses of the antenna wire itself) defines the radiation efficiency of the antenna. You want the radiation resistance of the antenna to be high relative to the resistance of the ground, so that power lost to ground resistance is low.

Ergo, if ground resistance is low (good) current will be high, If ground resistance is high (bad), current will be low. If ground resistance is high relative to radiation resistance of the antenna, a greater proportion of the total power will be consumed by the ground and not radiated by the antenna.

This applies to the vertical monopole of the backstay antenna. What I suppose is really open to question is whether or not it really is current that is being measured in this experiment with the "power meter". If it is actually measuring RF Vrms vs Amps, that might confuse the issue.


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Old 14-04-2016, 17:29   #354
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I will say that if the antenna system with the KISS is acting more like a 20 meter dipole than as a ground for a "ground mounted monopole" that the experiment may not be valid, since in that case the KISS would be radiating and not just functioning as a current return for a monopole.


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Old 14-04-2016, 18:16   #355
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

My point is that measuring power in the ground lead is not the same as measuring current. Also, most power meters don't measure "power" they measure forward and/or reflected power (technically they measure forward/reflected voltage and the meter scale is calibrated in power). Real power is the difference between forward and reflected power.

Ideally the "real power" transferred to the ground lead should be zero (i.e. lossless).

I guess I don't understand how a power meter can be effectively used in a ground lead to gain insight into the effectiveness of the counterpoise. A current meter can certainly be used but one may as well put it in series with the antenna lead to avoid any uncertainty. That's what most testers do to compare various counterpoise systems. All other things being equal, more antenna current indicates a better counterpoise.
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Old 14-04-2016, 20:36   #356
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

OK, we are on the same page, I do agree with you here.
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Old 17-04-2016, 04:42   #357
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Mmm,I must admit that i did not turn the current probe 180 degrees into the system.

The principle schematic is attached, so you can make a judgement yourself.
When some time left, I shall do a measurement with the analyser and tracking generator, to determinate if it makes a difference.

But why are we arguing, while Mr.KISS himself never showed any measurements or values. He never replied to anyone with technical answers. The hole myth around the KISS is dificult reproducible, but have by accident some working situations. Because the average sailor is not capable to make any reproducibly compares to other systems, he believes it. After all he has paid and want it to believe it works.
It is in my opinion at the border of fake.


Due the fact that the automatic tuners works so good, no one can notice that the system is not functioning correctly.


With regards, Jugo
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Old 17-04-2016, 06:39   #358
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I agree with John that anything (or nothing) on the ground side will work at some frequencies.

I am not arguing with you. I read your post and thought you were using a power meter. The data indicates "W" as the unit of measure. If the data is really amperes then ok.

Copper braid is not optimal as it is more lossy at HF frequencies. It is fine for DC or even 50/60 HZ AC but there are too many little wires touching. At HF the current will pass back and forth through these casual connections causing increased resistance and loss.
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Old 06-11-2016, 15:32   #359
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I am technically very fluent. This is a scam, period. They still can make money because people do not know better. They are just buying KISS’s propaganda. During good propagation, any radio installation over salt water is very forgiving. Coax cable, wiring, AAT, metal fixtures and proximity to salt water, together, represent “natural” build-in counterpoise/grounding system. That is why they are getting away with the “murder”. Operators’ statements are deceptive; in a sense that during good propagation it is not to difficult to make a QSO running only 5 to 15 Watts instead of 150 W. The effective radiated power in desired direction is not equal to the transmitter output power. Please ask QRP operators, they are very pleased with 1 W, especially on salt water. If somebody is happy using a -13 dB antenna system, please enjoy it.
In an emergency situation, among not cooperating propagation, this 13 dB power deficiency could be critical.

If somebody really believes in KISS that I have a suggestion, get yourself $149, go to Home Depot, buy one or two 12 and 10 ft tinted copper wire and the difference sent to your favorite charity.
KISS’s statements in crucial points are not factual and are misleading Customer Testimonials To cover liability they should put (in fine print) the following disclaimer: in an emergency it must be used with a 2 kW linear power amplifier.
Conclusion: it is still not shortage of Brooklyn Bridge buyers.
Anybody knows patent # ? or inventors names?
John
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