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Old 18-01-2016, 06:23   #316
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
It just won't die ....... SO....

What IS the most cost effective counterpoise?

1) KISS
2) Homemade KISS
3)Copper foil
4) "X' Ohm Ladder
5) ???

From someone who knows very little about the tecky stuff

Bill
A copper strip about 100mm (4 inches) wide that connects the tuner to a nearby bronze underwater through hull is the cheapest and often the best solution. "Nearby" meaning preferably 1M (3-4 feet) in total length of copper strip. But upwards of 3M (10 feet) will usually work.
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Old 18-01-2016, 08:15   #317
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I made the DIY with some irrigation tubing and a coil of speaker wire. I have an Icom 700Pro and AT130.

It works fairly good. I mainly use the HF to listen to weather nets, pactor email and talking with boat generally no far beyond vhf range.

If you need/want a more reliable long distance TX I don't think a KISS is adequate.
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Old 18-01-2016, 08:17   #318
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Will be adding a new water maker thru hull with bronze strainer later this year so may try the copper strip to that and compare. The only thru hull I currently have is part of the lightening ground system and I didn't want to tie that to the radio.
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Old 18-01-2016, 08:17   #319
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

But even if that copper strap to the bronze through-hull is 15 or 20 feet it will still be a lower impedance (better) counterpoise/RF ground than the KISS.


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Old 18-01-2016, 09:50   #320
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
Will be adding a new water maker thru hull with bronze strainer later this year so may try the copper strip to that and compare. The only thru hull I currently have is part of the lightening ground system and I didn't want to tie that to the radio.

There is nothing wrong with tying the tuner to that ground plate. Go for it. Electrons cannot read a schematic so they have no idea that plate is meant only for lightning. Lightning cannot read a schematic diagram either.
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Old 18-01-2016, 10:49   #321
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I hate putting anything on thru-hulls, is there an alternative?
Even throwing something overboard when using radio??

Bill
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Old 18-01-2016, 11:32   #322
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

What's wrong with attaching something to a through hull? If you worry about galvanic effects use a capacitor to isolate DC.
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Old 18-01-2016, 11:57   #323
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Bill,
While transmitterdan gave you a good answer, here is a bit more...and I hope I will be able to explain this in a non-techy way!
(and please forgive for not further discussing the KISS....but the facts have been presented over and over, and the test results are there in public for all to see.....so....)


When comparing RF grounds/Antenna grounds, everyone should be aware that this is all a matter of degree / what works better....(and remember even no rf ground / antenna ground, also works....)

So, having the answer to what works best / better is a very good thing to know....and it has been established over the decades that using the sea water is best, with a low-impedance direct sea water connection...
(FYI, it's been tested in the real-world, using scientific methods, by multiple technicians / engineers / hams / sailors, including RF current measurements, transmit and receive signal strength measurements, as well as RFI/Noise measurements, etc....multiple times, by multiple people (including myself), over the years, and the results have always been the same...you just cannot change the physics!)

So, I'd like to particularly point out that you list "copper foil" as a counterpoise, but what you should have written there is the "sea water"....
Copper strapping is just the low-impedance connection TO the sea water....of course the longer this connection is, the more it acts as part of your RF ground/Antenna ground (sort-of like a counterpoise)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
It just won't die ....... SO....

What IS the most cost effective counterpoise?

1) KISS
2) Homemade KISS
3)Copper foil
4) "X' Ohm Ladder
5) ???

From someone who knows very little about the tecky stuff

Bill
And, when you ask what it the most cost effective??
--- The answer is of course the sea water, using a low-impedance connection (such as a wide copper strap to an underwater grounding plate or suitable bronze thru-hull)....

--- And definitive NOT the KISS....at > $150, it is the LEAST cost effective!!


For non-metal hulls (fiberglass/GRP, wood)...
If you desire a list, in order of effectiveness, here it is:
1) Sea water....using a low-impedance connection to the sea water (typically a 3" wide copper strap)
There are no corrosion issues using this approach....I've installed this type of RF ground / Antenna ground for ~ 40 years....and I personally know of some old Hinckleys, Swans, etc. that have had this type of RF ground in use for 40 some years, with the SAME copper strapping originally installed by the factory....
It works, it works well, and doesn't cause problems...
{FYI, on my current boat, I have all Marelon trh-hulls, so I have two big Dunaplates)


2) Lifelines, rubrails, pushpits, stanchions/rails, arches, etc., as well as alum toerails (to use alum toerails, you must connect/attach below the anodizing / using a tapped-machine-screw and some Penatrox-A/conductive grease).



3 or 4) Artificial counterpoises made of wire...various lengths....spread out as best you can...
This is commonly referred to as "radials"...and if you have no means of connecting to the sea water, nor any other metal structure / lifelines / etc., then these are your next option...
Understand that they can be very effective if you can run two sets of wires under the decks in the cabin headliner, one set on each side of the boat, and even more under the cabin sole, etc...
(but, if this isn't possible/practical, these will be less effective, and then the set-up described next would be better)


3 or 4) Metal tanks, lead keel, etc...(although these can be effective, it is their distance from the tuner that can makes them less effective than the above...although if you use wide copper strap to connect to a keel bolt of an external keel, this will be effective...)



5) A bundle of wires, grouped or tied together (this describes the KISS)....these generally behave as just one wire, with some very slight advantage over one single wire....
If you read over and look carefully at the spectrum scans in the referenced links, you'll quickly see this...

Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise



6) And, lastly, no RF ground / Antenna ground / counterpoise at all...



{Now, since I have no idea what a "X ohm ladder" is, I cannot comment on that specifically....but sorta sounds like someone wants to make a couple "tuned radials" from a piece of ladderline???
If that's the case, be aware that while this is possible if it's hung out in the clear, but once this is placed near other things / in the bilges / under the decks / etc. it will lose much of its resonance (similar to the wires that I used in my testing....please read the linked references!)
So, should you be considering an RF ground / Antenna ground, other than the sea water (with a low-impedance connection), then it is clear that your best choice is using what existing wire / metallic objects you already have on-board (such as lifelines, toerails, etc...)
And only if those are not available, should you consider an artificial counterpoise / set of radials....but please understand that while attempting to cut them to a specific length is not a bad idea, it will end-up not really making a difference....as long as you have a couple shorter wires of 15' - 20' and a couple longer ones of 30' or so, the exact length is not too critical...}


Bill, I do hope this helps....in a non-techy way!!!

fair winds..

John



The answer is of course dependent on what your definition of "effective" is...
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Old 18-01-2016, 13:15   #324
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Memories of being in San Diego 30 years ago, next to a beautiful Fisher, 37 feet as I recall, brand new, went to the bottom in a week due to stray currents. Just chewed away some thru-hulls.

Ever since then I've had thru hull phobia.

:-(
Bill





Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
What's wrong with attaching something to a through hull? If you worry about galvanic effects use a capacitor to isolate DC.
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Old 18-01-2016, 16:06   #325
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
Memories of being in San Diego 30 years ago, next to a beautiful Fisher, 37 feet as I recall, brand new, went to the bottom in a week due to stray currents. Just chewed away some thru-hulls.

Ever since then I've had thru hull phobia.

:-(
Bill

It is easy to isolate the through hull against galvanic issues. But your description of the problem suggests the boat did not have galvanic isolation. That is another subject and must be addressed regardless of SSB issues.
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Old 18-01-2016, 16:08   #326
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
Memories of being in San Diego 30 years ago, next to a beautiful Fisher, 37 feet as I recall, brand new, went to the bottom in a week due to stray currents. Just chewed away some thru-hulls.

Ever since then I've had thru hull phobia.

:-(
Bill
Phobia or no, if you use blocking capacitors in the connection to the through hull there will be no stray current applied via that path.

Jim
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Old 18-01-2016, 17:53   #327
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Is this the first time a phobia could be cured with a capacitor?
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Old 18-01-2016, 20:29   #328
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Cheaper than a psychologist I guess :-)

QUOTE=transmitterdan;2020131]Is this the first time a phobia could be cured with a capacitor? [/QUOTE]
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Old 25-01-2016, 21:17   #329
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Bill,


For non-metal hulls (fiberglass/GRP, wood)...
If you desire a list, in order of effectiveness, here it is:
1) Sea water....using a low-impedance connection to the sea water (typically a 3" wide copper strap)
There are no corrosion issues using this approach....I've installed this type of RF ground / Antenna ground for ~ 40 years....and I personally know of some old Hinckleys, Swans, etc. that have had this type of RF ground in use for 40 some years, with the SAME copper strapping originally installed by the factory....
It works, it works well, and doesn't cause problems...
{FYI, on my current boat, I have all Marelon trh-hulls, so I have two big Dunaplates)


2) Lifelines, rubrails, pushpits, stanchions/rails, arches, etc., as well as alum toerails (to use alum toerails, you must connect/attach below the anodizing / using a tapped-machine-screw and some Penatrox-A/conductive grease).



If all of your bronze thru-hulls are bonded together, and all bonded to your rigging (except the insulated backstay) for lightning protection, then wouldn't connecting all of that, especially the rigging, have a negative impact on transmission? You basically have grounded wires, and a grounded mast sticking up in the air along side of your transmitting antenna.

No issue with that?
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Old 25-01-2016, 22:19   #330
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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If all of your bronze thru-hulls are bonded together, and all bonded to your rigging (except the insulated backstay) for lightning protection, then wouldn't connecting all of that, especially the rigging, have a negative impact on transmission? You basically have grounded wires, and a grounded mast sticking up in the air along side of your transmitting antenna.

No issue with that?
No, it's really not much of an issue.

As a matter of fact, all my chainplates and my mast are grounded, as are the attached stays and shrouds. For these to have a deleterious effect they would have to be at a precise length and orientation at a specific frequency -- then you might have a "beam" antenna or other directional pattern. But on a sailboat the backstay is at a wildly different angle than the other vertical elements, and with varying spacing. It's just not going to have a significant directional or otherwise power-sapping effect. There will be minor parasitic capacitances, but that's what your tuner is for.
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