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Old 07-10-2014, 21:54   #301
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The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

If you had read the messages you would have found that this type of ground system has been measured and found not to work as well as its proponents think it does. These systems are not as good as a short and wide copper strip to a through hull. They can cause huge amounts of interference to other on board systems. The whole idea defies what we know about how RF works.
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Old 07-10-2014, 22:25   #302
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If you had read the messages you would have found that this type of ground system has been measured and found not to work as well as its proponents think it does. These systems are not as good as a short and wide copper strip to a through hull. They can cause huge amounts of interference to other on board systems. The whole idea defies what we know about how RF works.
Yah...I used the copper in the hull of the boat before and it didn't seem to work as well and definitely did not mix well with the marine environment. I don't really care what people use in their own boats but for this topic I would say this $30 solution is great solution and works great for my purposes. I've communicated on nets all across the pacific and recently started using it for email. The copper foil in the boat is messy and corrodes if you don't treat it well before installing. and takes some time getting the area on a small boat. There are I'm sure better methods but as for this method I described it has been great and costs nothing. As for the KISS antenna, I just gave you the wire lengths don't bother spending all the money.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:07   #303
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Santanasailor -

I'm pretty sure the approach you speak of will work as well as or better than the KISS, and perhaps as well as or even better than the traditional copper strap approach, though it could probably be simplified even more with equal effectiveness.

Raising the "counterpoise" above the water makes the individual lengths of your radial bundles a real factor, but bundling different lengths together in this manner makes the individual contributions of the shorter lengths in the bundles almost non-contributory. Its also unlikely that in the environment of the boat, with the proximity of large amounts of nearby rigging, lifelines, and other conductors, that precise lengths of these wires bundles for different bands can be calculated, though they could be found empirically for an individual installation. Nearby conductors, or even nearby earth or seawater, will make calculations for resonant lengths for desired bands just a starting point, but maybe close enough to ease the job of the antenna tuner.

As for myself, I applaud anyone's experimental approach to better radio!

Chip
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Old 20-11-2014, 20:57   #304
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I made one today with the wire lengths Santana mentioned on previous page. Put it all in a tube with the lug attached to all wires. Uses 20 ga or so speaker wire I had on hand. Should have it all hooked up and testing in a few days.
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Old 25-11-2014, 05:18   #305
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I tested the radio yesterday with my SUPER KISS speaker wire counterpoise. Works, ok. Had contact with a station in Boston on 14.300, but he had light copy. Will try the marine SSB net today
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Old 22-12-2015, 03:19   #306
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Is there any body who ever measured the RF-current at the ground side of the antenna tuner? This should be, under controlled conditions, the reference of a good working HF station. At least it give a good compare and helps determinate the better system.


It should be most interesting when some one does have a bronze plate and a KISS snake for test in one ship. Measure the RF current with a suitable RF current probe at both grounding systems (exchange them) at the same frequency and antenna.
More current = more efficiency = more output.


Measure = knowledge


My 2 cents
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Old 22-12-2015, 06:29   #307
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Someone has done the proper measurements. http://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/Sea...GordonWest.pdf
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Old 22-12-2015, 08:03   #308
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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Someone has done the proper measurements. http://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/Sea...GordonWest.pdf
Yeah you are right. I should know this article.
After reading this again, there is no need for any futher discussion about capacitive ground system and real seawater grounding, espesialy about the man-made noise and/or static.


But this measurement is not done between traditional seawater grounding and the KISS. maybe only needed to convince the pro's and con's.


Still work to do...

I have the tools, not the subjects (no KISS snake)....
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:44   #309
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The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

You can see at the start of this thread how the KISS is constructed. No need to spend $160 for something you can easily duplicate for far, far less.


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Old 23-12-2015, 02:32   #310
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I guess this topic is bound to break the records! Then again RF grounding is an intriguing subject....
It is impossible to create on a sailing boat the perfect "random length end-fed vertical" with a perfect (elevated or not) radial system as one might do on land.
On the other hand, salt water is your next to perfect near- and far field ground....
Your sloping end-fed antenna (either insulated backstay or extra sloping wire) is not vertical hence already a compromise (unless you install a marine-proof HF-vertical whip of suitable length and even then it will not be placed symmetrically in the middle of a radial field...
2 RF-ground have empirically (and to some intent scientifically with regard to RF-current measurements by Gordon west for connecting to underwater bronze) been giving good results:
- either creating some form of groundplane with lots of metal bonded and/or copper tape groundplane or some (more or less cut to frequency) wire or copper tape radials eg against the hull, under the floorboards or along the toerails)
- the short (certainly shorter than 1/4 wavelength on your target frequencies) preferably copper tape connection to and underwater bronze (dedicated or not by I prefer a dedicated stand-alone bronze plate)

Install a high quality automatic antenna tuner (SGC, Icom, ...) that can match wide enough a range of impedances
Install it with the antenna lug connector as close as possible to thethrough-hull isolator and hence the bottom end of your antenna (antenna + the connecting wire)

Connect both type of grounds to your ATU ground lug.

IF you favor long range HF-SSB communication (> 1500 nm) then also choose your antenna wire length (that is antenna wire/backstay PLUS connection wire going to the ATU antenna lug) carefully. It should preferably not exceed 0.625 x the wavelength of your highest target frequency, to favor low-angle take off of yoursignal.
(and avoiding of course a lengths very close to 1/2 WL on any of target frequencies else the ATU might have a very hard time matching.

You can also start with 1 of both ground systems (the easiest one to implement in your case eg. if your boat has an available underwater bronze then try that first) and see how that works.
Maybe adding a second one later on.

You will then also be able to see the effect of RF on the rest of the ships wiring (control lights lighting up - interference with other electronics) and maybe eliminate one of both.

I won't add oil to the fire. My opinion is that the KISS-ground is mainly helping the ATU to match more easily. That probably doesn't harm... but I would not rely on only that to create a good RF-ground "platform". With a KISS I would combine it with connection to an underwater bronze.

Merry Xmas and a very fruitful 2016 to all of you with good winds and sunshine!
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Old 23-12-2015, 02:57   #311
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
You can see at the start of this thread how the KISS is constructed. No need to spend $160 for something you can easily duplicate for far, far less.


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Yes, i keep the pictures already some years in the archive.
The problem is that the mythe from the KISS is very dificult to eradicate.
"normal" sailors can not determinate the diference between i.e. 40% or 45% efficiency, for them it works.
A single cruiser can not measure the difference, his actual solution is is his only reference.
I have already had a sailor who blow up his new pactor by RF stray currents , because of poor grounding. All the connected cables acted als counterpoise.
At all times we all do want to avoid that kind of problems.
In this tread there are resonance measurements done, but no current mearurements.


This spring (2016) I get the opportunity to visit a ship (and measure) with bronze plate and KISS hose. Probaly I will try to do some field strength mearurements I shall try to keep this thread updated.


Other (minor) problem with the KISS hose is the buildup static charge at your antenna somtimes. Normal it is discharged through the bronze plate or hull. With the KISS snake there is no defined leak-way to ground. Espacialy for ships who do not have a physical connection between their electrical system and the seawater.
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Old 23-12-2015, 03:33   #312
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Looking forward to that Wad'nwind.

There shouldn't be a cruisade against a commercial product, the KISS in this case, but my opninion remains it is merely helping the antenna tuner to get an easier match, not more. Just like a single cut 1/4 wave elevated radial will help you match a random length end-fed vertical but without giving you a good radiation pattern.

Jan
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Old 23-12-2015, 05:47   #313
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

In order for the KISS to do what is claims it must radiate RF power from the bundle of wires. There is no other way for current to flow in the ground terminal of the tuner. And there must be current in the ground lug (or coax shield) in order to have current in the antenna lead. In fact all these currents must sum to zero.

There is no doubt that something like KISS can help a tuner match the wire antenna impedance. But the mechanism by which that is possible has several inconvenient side effects. The most common complaint is RFI to other devices within the boat. It's no big mystery why that happens IMO. Also, the amount of radiated power leaving the vertical radial is reduced by the amount lost to heating and radiation in the KISS.

If you want to maximize the radiated power use a proper length radiator and connect the ground lug to the ocean by the shortest widest flattest strap of copper possible. That means to a nearby bronze through hull or a bronze plate installed as an RF ground. It is not a stupid idea to use 2 straps of slightly different length as belt and suspenders.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:23   #314
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Wad'nwind,
I gave up commenting on the KISS Ground here, a couple years ago....as I was just exhausted from trying to explain the misleading advertising and hype....

{Please understand that as I have been saying for decades, it is all a matter of degree....how well one ground system works vs. another...vs. no ground system at all....
This is why real, honest, verifiable test data is needed to "show" what works better/best....and this is why I posted the spectral traces of the non-resonance of the KISS....(see SSCA page for ALL of the traces!) }

Before I go back to ignoring discussions about the KISS....
Here are a few quick points that might help you out....


1) I actually did measure my antenna system current on the GTO-15 wire as it exits the tuner, not the ground current....using my Delta TCT-N (rf current sampler transformer) and an older analog Tek 2235 scope...on 3.665mhz....and found significantly higher antenna current using my direct sea water ground connection (~ 8' of 6" wide copper strap, connected to two large Dynaplates of 18"x6"), versus the KISS...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wad'nwind View Post
But this measurement is not done between traditional seawater grounding and the KISS. maybe only needed to convince the pro's and con's.

Still work to do...
The problem is I didn't have anyway of "showing" this result, as I did with the spectral traces of the KISS' non-resonance....so, nobody ever believes me!



2) The definitive tests of the KISS's lack of any significant resonance at all, were done by me a couple years ago, and I posted the results for all to see, view, and discuss as much as the desired.....over on the SSCA Discussion boards...(be forewarned, there are a few dozen traces to study...)

Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise
(see last half-dozen traces, showing the KISS in my lazarette, as well as a few randomly cut pieces of scrap wire tossed into my lazarette as a "counterpoise"....and see the significant improvement in resonance of these pieces of scrap wire compared to the KISS...)


Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise




3) Here are just a couple (out the dozens) of traces...

a) My "scarp wire" (free) antenna counterpoise, laying in my lazarette:






b) The KISS, laying in my lazarette:





I hope this helps, and I wish you well in your tests/endeavors.....but, not sure what you'll learn that hasn't already been tested/posted...

Fair winds..

John
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Old 18-01-2016, 06:05   #315
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

It just won't die ....... SO....

What IS the most cost effective counterpoise?

1) KISS
2) Homemade KISS
3)Copper foil
4) "X' Ohm Ladder
5) ???

From someone who knows very little about the tecky stuff

Bill
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