SSB HELP for SABA 50

[Unregistered-1]

No mate I'm going to debug every notion that's everyones heads when theres pages and pages of it.. I'll post my ideas, you post yours.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ

No mate I'm going to debug every notion that's everyones heads when theres pages and pages of it.. I'll post my ideas, you post yours.

Understood. I think it's a stupid and counterproductive policy to walk away from a legitimate technical debate, but it's certainly your choice to make.

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Understood. I think it's a stupid and counterproductive policy to walk away from a legitimate technical debate, but it's certainly your choice to make.

Thats what you think, and for you its valid.

What I think is the internet is a place that people will extract your soul if you let them.

I have a caravan to fix, and I'm 100% ok with everything in everyone elses head. My problem is whats in my head.

Have good afternoon mate!

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ

What I think is the internet is a place that people will extract your soul if you let them.

So don't let them! I agree, participate in a debate such as this only as long as it's fun. For me, at the moment it happens to be fun. Tomorrow I'm spending the day on the water -- that will be more fun.

But it does seem that you have some well-considered opinions on this radio subject, and I would enjoy an extended discussion one of these days.

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

But it does seem that you have some well-considered opinions on this radio subject, and I would enjoy an extended discussion one of these days.

Thank you kindly, and as would I.

The bit I find onerous is fixing pages and pages of ill-considered non-facts. I'm just not going to do that. I guess readers are capable of sorting their own truth from trash - but what if the guy says hes been an installer for decades??

On a much brighter note, I very occasionally hear a good old fashioned rag chew late into the night between yachties on the lower (4MHz) HF marine bands - this is pretty cool to hear, except for a lot of the time the language is pretty basic. Does anyone here do this?

[Jim Cate]

On a much brighter note, I very occasionally hear a good old fashioned rag chew late into the night between yachties on the lower (4MHz) HF marine bands - this is pretty cool to hear, except for a lot of the time the language is pretty basic. Does anyone here do this?

Sure they are not fishermen? We hear a lot of traffic between fishing boats of one sort or another, and the Great Australian Adjective is frequently involved.


Haven't heard ragchews on the marine bands much of late, but still common between hams on yachts.

Jim

PS The use of single band antennae on sailboats is not IMO practical or even desireable. We're not involved in dxing contests... mostly chatting with other cruisers in the same oceans, and depending on time of day, different bands are utilized. I'm sure as hell not going out on deck and changing antennae all the time.

As often posted, my approach is to use the whole rig as an antenna... no insulators other than the hull. Optimum? Surely not. Multi Band and simple and inexpensive? Damn right it is. Has worked for me for decades of cruising.

[BigBeakie]

John,

There are many helpful people here on the forum, but if there was a vote for the most consistently informative poster, you would have to be a finalist. Just wanted you to know that as a newbie M802 owner who has not yet commissioned the radio your posts & videos are tremendously helpful.

Good on ya!


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[ka4wja]

Big Beakie,
Thanks for kudos...and you are all every welcome!!
But, you do know that I don't do it for the praise, rather for the love of radio...(that's a whole 'nother discussion!)

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

John,

There are many helpful people here on the forum, but if there was a vote for the most consistently informative poster, you would have to be a finalist. Just wanted you to know that as a newbie M802 owner who has not yet commissioned the radio your posts & videos are tremendously helpful.

Good on ya!

BTW, as for "fan dipoles" on-board, as I wrote earlier I have made 'em....and they were just for fun and for occasional use...
(of course a single-band vertical dipole is a nice antenna....most won't go and hoist another one to change bands....and most boats cannot fit one for bands below 12mhz...


Now, I looked and looked for pics of my 8mhz and 12mhz fan dipole, and even dragged out my old laptop thinking I had the pics there, but no joy...
FYI, I used my genoa #2 halyard to raise the 8mhz upper leg, with the 12mhz leg tied off to it....and let the 12mhz upper leg droop down a bit in a loop, but used no stand-offs....had the lower legs tied-off on the toerails, 8mhz to starboard and 12mhz to port side...
It was a pain to tune to freq....the individual dipoles worked good, but when used as a vertical "fan dipole" it was a pain....although all I was using was the M-802 and my Daiwa swing-needle power/SWR meter, and I think I went up/down the companionway 10 times, hoisting the antenna up/down half-dozen times, to get it on-frequency...

But, the biggest pain was I ended up not needing the 8mhz dipole....ugh!

You see, my boat faces ENE at the dock here in S. Florida....so, my backstay slopes away from that direction....and with EU and the N. Atlantic being to me NE and the E. Caribbean to my SE....and I was helping out Herb on his Weather Net on 12.359mhz (and 8.294mhz, secondarily), so it was these directions that I desired to cover....assuming I had a null in my backstay pattern in that direction??

Well, on 12mhz there was some improvement, some times....on some paths a couple to 3db....other times no improvement at all...
On 8mhz, no difference...so..

So, I took it down and then made a 12mhz dipole....and then had a "brainstorm" (argh)...I decided to make a 12mhz / 14mhz "fan dipole"....well, it wasn't really a fan dipole, 'cuz on the foredeck of a 47' sloop I'm limited...
So, I made a 12mhz / 14mhz, "parallel wire-dipole" / "narrow-spaced-fan-dipole"....and while it too was a pain to tune onto freq, 12.359 was actually easy, but getting a resonance on 20m was a pain...again using just the M-802 and Daiwa meter, another dozen times up/down....
But, it worked well...
AND...
And, I got pictures!!! Well, pics of the antenna in proto-type mode, before I ran the StaSet through it...






My final design used 450-ohn window-line as the antenna...and I ended-up using a length of 3/8" StaSet woven-through the window-line as the actual antenna support....but..
But, the StaSet actually moved the 20m resonant freq up by about 200khz...but moves down again a bit, when it's wet...
Well, all-in-all, no worries..

But, the real question is: Did it work? Was it worth it?
Hmm, well it did work, and I still have it coiled-up, stowed in a canvas bag in a storage locker on-board...but..
But, the fact is most of the time, I found little difference between the vertical multiband, parallel wire dipole and my backstay....there were some instances that it made copying a weaker boat easier, but that was about 25% of the time....so, all-in....not worth the effort....
But, a fun project....and a learning experience!


Oh, and a couple years later, when I was testing the thru-loss on the Vesper SP-160 VHF/AIS relay/splitter....I strung the thing up again, and swept it with one of my analyzers...
Here is what It ended up looking like....not too shabby for a homebrewed temporary antenna tuned with just an swr meter...






Hope these anecdotes are helpful??

Fair winds..

John

P.S. Sorry I didn't respond to you kind words quicker....but, I was quite busy today....and also uploaded and posted some new radio videos!!
Have a look here:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684996


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684997


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-205002.html


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684969


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684965


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684981


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2684977


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2685028 (a new posting)

[ka4wja]

Just a very brief posting here....

Those looking to better familiarize themselves with HF radio operations / radiowave propagation, especially now and in the coming few years of low-sunspot numbers...





Please have a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMTWgIvyro4&t=7s

And, for more HF communications info, have a look at these Youtube Playlists...
(please forgive any abrupt edits, etc....as these videos are made on-the-fly, LIVE, in the real-world, on a real offshore cruising boat...with no script, no director, no real plan except what is in my head at the time....so, the narration is just me...off the top-of-my-head...)


HF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Maritime HF Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY



VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF

Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY



Fair winds.

John

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

.... my 8mhz and 12mhz fan dipole.... It was a pain to tune to freq....the individual dipoles worked good, but when used as a vertical "fan dipole" it was a pain....

Yup. Can you explain why? No?

The principle of operation of a fan dipole, is the feedpoint impedance of the "not in use" dipoles are an order of magnitude higher than the "in-use" dipole. This way, the other dipoles are invisible to the transmitter. Visualise resistors in parallel and apply ohms law, and you will see all the current flowing into the low (50ohm) resistor, and no current flowing into the higher resistances. When the bands are not harmonically related (viz 8/12mhz) then this cannot happen, and the antennas will inter-react heavily making a confusing mess, and and complex and random job for any antenna coupler.

In short, a 4/8 Mhz fan dipole (just like an 80/40m one) is a good idea. A 8 and 12MHz fan dipole is not.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

You see, my boat faces ENE at the dock here in S. Florida....so, my backstay slopes away from that direction....

This is just plain wrong.

A pitiful little too-short wire antenna doesn't HAVE any directivity to speak of, and attributing directivity to it by force of a carefully worded forum post doesn't improve the situation. ALL signals received from this antenna will come down in a random direction and radiation pattern from the ionosphere.

We spent years conducting actual tests with radiation angles and patterns, and the only thing that had any directivity was a decent yagi at a decent height.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Well, on 12mhz there was some improvement, some times....on some paths a couple to 3db....other times no improvement at all...

No, sorry that's rubbish. 3dB is HALF an S point, and I dispute that you were able to see that from your S meter.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

but getting a resonance on 20m was a pain...again using just the M-802 and Daiwa meter, another dozen times up/down....

Do you know why that is? It's because the antenna, electrically, was a complete disaster! A huge job for the antenna to find a usable location! Quite frankly, I could hang up a slinky with no groundplane and get a better match than that - but why would I want to on such a rubbish antenna!

[ka4wja]

Seriously???


Yes, I do know why....but sorry I'm taking care of family at the moment...so, I'm not gonna start digging into all of that...

BTW, you may want to remember that we are not discussing antenna theory here...at least I wasn't....
I was discussing practical antennas for offshore cruising boats...

Maybe I'll get around to more later....may be not...
Gotta go now.

Fair winsd

John'

[weavis]

Mod note

How can I put this... OK... be nice. No more harsh words. Leave out the personal jibes and barbs. Its a good discussion but leave the nastiness at home.

[Wotname]

AFAIK, the maximum Tx power in Oz is limited to 100W (at least it was say a decade back and there has been no obvious need to change). So I'm surmising the M801E is throttled back to 100W to meet Oz specs.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

I am Old School, and a HAM, Maritime Mobile, looking at getting a Marine SSB for my Saba 50...

Marine HF is obsolete and it will be used less and less going forward. Many of us believe that Iridium Certus will end the era of HF for good but this remains to be seen. That being said, HF on a boat is great fun and it could be useful when sailing deep offshore to keep in touch with friends, download weather, basic email and safety.

Since many people are leaving the hobby, good used equipment can be had on eBay. I strongly suggest you look into that. I got a great SEA-235 plus tuner for a very reasonable price. You can install it yourself with a little bit of reading, then connect a laptop with Winlink for email. I would not spend thousands on new HF equipment in 2018 as it is not worth it for me.

For safety, a satellite phone and EPIRB is better in my opinion, especially if you have friends on shore. Ham HF is also better because you get to actually talk to some people instead of waiting for the marine net. Further, there are special ham modes that use low bandwidth but can send reliably send a signal under any conditions (important in the current sunspot cycle). I regularly test my HF rig from the West Coast to Seattle, Hawaii and Texas to make sure it works under different conditions. It gives me a piece of mind without DSC but DSC is also nice to have. Most of the rescues I have heard off recently start from the cell phone these days - Again, my experience, some people have different experiences.

The actual rig does not matter as much. Marine rigs are similar to ham rigs but have redundancy (two separate amplifier paths in case one goes down) and supposedly better corrosion resistance. Most important is to be able to control the rig with the software program you choose... it makes email and short messaging so much easier.

My suggestion would be to check eBay, local ham clubs and put together a good rig for $1,000 or less with software modem. If you spent $5,000 for a new top of the line rig then compare this to the cost of a cell phone for the next year plus hardware and service for Iridium Certus for the following 3-4 years, the latter will come ahead and it will be a lot more convenient to use. But of course, you make your own decisions.

I would not have a boat without HF but this is just me, I like fiddling with this stuff. Other people prefer the convenience and reliability of Iridium. Make sure you compare the costs and benefits of both.

Regards,
AI6PE

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Marine rigs are similar to ham rigs but have redundancy (two separate amplifier paths in case one goes down).

Really? I've studied my Icom M810RT service manual and I don't recall seeing this type of redundancy. As I remember, there was essentially zero duplication of the main circuitry.