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Old 11-01-2012, 13:43   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPacific

So Nick the control cable from the Icom 710 to the AT130 should be:

4 core shielded cable. Follow the wiring diagram that Icom provides. What gauge wire for this control wire? Something that can handle 2 amps?

link the shield to the ground on 1 end only. either end?

Run a ground wire from the radio to the ground on tuner as per Icom instructions.

Dont think I will find fancy solutions in our small hardware stores so the separate braid is probably not going to work.

Add kiss to At130 ground point.

Coaxial set up like any co axial set up.

I must be close now

Steve
The 4-conducor cable gauge was already posted somewhere and the cable that I linked to is the actual one I use.

It was already posted to connect the ground only at he radio end.

I would not run a ground wire between radio and tuner.

ciao!
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Old 11-01-2012, 16:13   #107
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Re: SSB Advice

Ya sorry Nick for seeming like a dumb @#$%^. Lots of other SSB threads on here as well that have great advice. I am well pleased with the measure of support that forum members have offered, including yourself. 8 pages of advice, sometimes conflicting on how to connect 6 wires needs to be digested carefully by a rank amateur like myself.

Now as some of your and other advice goes directly against the Icom manuals, think of my asking for clarification as measure 2 cut 1 mentality.

Anyway Once again thank you and everyone else for the information. Greatly appreciated.

Steve
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:01   #108
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Re: SSB Advice

My experience over the last 30 years or so has shown that the best HF antenna for a sailboat (sloop) has not been mentioned or discussed yet in this thread. The antenna that I have found that consistently out performs any other sailboat antenna is called a sloper. It is electrically the opposite of the regular backstay antenna discussed here in that you connect your transmitter's COAX feedline at the TOP of your insulated backstay. You do this by using a radio rigging insulator mounted right at the masthead (marine eye on a toggle...see photo). Now, I can hear you saying; If this is such a great antenna then why don't more people know about it and why isn't everyone using one? Well...there's a couple of drawbacks with this antenna but they aren't about the antenna. They are about the setup desired, and the end users. Here's why;
1.) The sloper MUST be connected to the backstay right at the masthead using coax cable not a single wire feedline. That let's out all the users that require automatic antenna tuners with single wire output fittings. Marine auto antenna tuners are simply not set up to tune an antenna fed with coax cable. Sorry...
2.) Because of number one, you must use a manual antenna tuner. That lets out users that don't want to take the trouble to learn how to tune their antenna each time they change bands. It takes a bit of practice, or a knack if you will, to learn to use the manual tuners quickly. But once you get the hang of it, (and write down your settings for each band) it's not a big deal at all. So folks that like to push the button and talk...well...sorry.
3.) You have to install the sloper when your mast is down because you need to feed the coax cable up inside the mast to the masthead through the mast's PVC wiring tube. (you do have one of those I hope)

Now, on the plus side?
1.) You don't need to worry about trying to hook up a ground counterpoise inside the hull of your boat because the sloper uses the rest of the mast, upper shrouds, lower shrouds, and anything that is grounded to the mast as it's counterpoise. (the braid of the coax cable gets connected to the shrouds with a stainless strap---see photo) In essence the backstay now "sees" the rest of the entire rig as it's counterpoise and is USING the rigging to benefit instead of the rigging being in the way and absorbing some of your signal when you connect your backstay at the bottom.
2.) You won't have hot RF running around your electrical panel lighting up lights and giving you RF burns if you touch something that the signal is using for it's counterpoise because your counterpoise is no longer in the boat....it's in the rigging.
2.) But lastly, the best part and why the sloper antenna radiates so well, (for you electronic geeks out there) is that the current loop of the sloper (the part that radiates your signal out into space) is now way up at the masthead and not down in a locker below decks where you mounted your automatic antenna tuner. (the current loop in a bottom fed auto-tuned antenna is near the antenna tuner and bottom portion of the antenna (your backstay). For anyone interested in the technical reasons why, there are volumes written on voltage loops and current loops in unbalanced non-resonant coax fed antennas---but we won't be going into that here. Suffice to say one can "see" a lot further from the top of their mast than from poking their head out the lazzarette!

The photo supplied here is of the masthead fittings on my sloper I installed on my old Rawson 30 that finished up a seven year circumnavigation. The sloper fared very well and there were no problems at all caused by using this "upside-down" antenna. If it's hard to see in the photo, but the large black cable exiting the mast is RG-213x coax cable with a PL-259 plug on the end. That PL-259 plug screws into a SO-239 female coax connector that is mounted on a .040" stainless grounding strap that is screwed to the masthead, and also runs up and over the masthead and is clamped with hose clamps to the headstay which insures that the braid of the coax cable makes a good solid ground connection to the rigging. In reality ALL the rigging measures as ground on the braid side of the coax cable so the entire rig becomes the counterpoise for the "top fed" or upside-down antenna.

Hope this gives some food for thought. If anyone is interested I can tell of some real world tests I have done with this antenna but this has been a "wordy" post so I'll sign off for now...
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:03   #109
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Re: SSB Advice

Hi Wireless,

That looks like a very interesting proposition. But if you look at my posts on this thread I have a hard time figuring out a standard set up. I have bought a tuner and Icom 710 ( new to me) and I hope that they work well.

Seems like when it comes to SSB there are at least 3 answers for every question. LOL You sound like you have first hand knowledge as well as understanding. Me right at the beginning of the curve. But I learned to walk and talk so nothings impossible right. Cheers for the post.
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Old 14-01-2012, 08:15   #110
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1 foot? 3 feet?

In trying to follow these posts I am still confused about this 1 to 3 foot thing.
I think I recall several posts mentioning that the wire from the antenna to the tuner should be kept to 1 to 3 feet in length but at least one other poster, I believe, started that this length only applied to the part of the wire inside the hull.
So, is it 1' - 3' total or only inside the hull?
I am curious because, due to the way my boat was built, there is no way to get the tuner closer than about 5' to the antenna (at least without major modifications to the boat - trust me on this one).
Thanks
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Old 14-01-2012, 08:18   #111
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Re: 1 foot? 3 feet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbanker View Post
In trying to follow these posts I am still confused about this 1 to 3 foot thing.
I think I recall several posts mentioning that the wire from the antenna to the tuner should be kept to 1 to 3 feet in length but at least one other poster, I believe, started that this length only applied to the part of the wire inside the hull.
So, is it 1' - 3' total or only inside the hull?
I am curious because, due to the way my boat was built, there is no way to get the tuner closer than about 5' to the antenna (at least without major modifications to the boat - trust me on this one).
Thanks
It is for the part inside the hull. The part outside the hull is freely radiating as part of the antenna without the hull shielding it.

ciao!
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Old 14-01-2012, 12:27   #112
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Re: SSB Advice

The antenna begins radiating at the tuner. Other wise your antenna is the backstay or whatever antenna you are using plus the wire connecting it to the tuner. As Jedi said, anything below decks may not be radiating RF that actually gets out on the airwaves. The 3' or less is a good rule of thumb but not a hard and fast rule. If you really can't get the tuner closer than 5' to the point where it exits the deck to go to the antenna, all you can do is try it and see how it works.

Believe it's been pointed on this thread that the tuners are designed for outdoor mounting. That's outdoors on land not on a boat so may be a consideration. Mounting above deck would be a last resort solution to me.

Problem with HF in Marinas is there are so many masts that seriously attenuate the signal, both on recieve and transmit. I could barely pickup WWV in the marina when installed my radio but no problems once out and about.
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Old 14-01-2012, 19:11   #113
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Re: SSB Advice

you the only smart person here! next they will be offering the KISS ground rolled up into a matchbox and claim that it works. The fact is that any piece of crap attached to the earth lug will work. This is not the issue. Working a long distance does not tell you the efficiency of the system. I have worked stations on a dummy load, and that is the least efficient antenna in the world! The KISS is flawed concept and those who sing praises for it are really doing people a huge disservice. I can achieve the same with a ordinary piece of wire. What gets me is that whoever uses the KISS has never actually used a similar length of wire and swapped between the KISS and the piece of 10 cent wire. The result will be the same. Loaded counterpoises is a failed concept in ham radio circles and create a lot of problems. The stupidity of people who think that somehow you can ""load"" counterpoise indicates how poor their understanding of how a simple antenna like a vertical radiator actually works. Hams having been struggling for decades trying to shrink and make a counterpoise or ground system on verticals small and to make them disappear, all the results have so far failed. The simple fact that counterpoise efficiency is tied to radiation efficiency of the antenna is missed by the supposed experts. Nobody is saying that it does not WORK. The fact is that the size automatically dictates that the KISS is poor choice and therefore radiation efficiency is low. Why the KISS does not fail in lousy manner is that its installed over seawater. The ground conductivity is so high over seawater it is the reason why even the crappiest ground counter poise or even a wet rope connected to the earth terminal will work. If the KISS was such a tremendous performer and you used it on land it would be an equally good performance. We all know what would happen if you attached a kiss to a fully size 1/4 wave vertical, the impact on the impedance would be minimal o and its performance would terrible simply indicating that it is a very poor counterpoise. If the KISS people had credibility they would quantify the equivalent ground loss improvement that KISS would contribute on all frequencies. Since they dont have this data we know the concept is rubbish. The KISS is a poorly though out concept that is no different to the equivalent length of wire. Anyone who says any different has a very poor understanding of how a counterpoise actually works and what its intended purpose is. What also is striking in this case, is that the antenna to be used with this poor KISS counterpoise is a short antenna with poor efficiency on the lower frequencies. Such low efficient antennas require the very best counterpoise possible. Introducing a small counter poise into the radiation efficiency argument is silly at best. Short verticals and Ship whips were designed to be used with a very large proper counterpoise, those who think that you can shrink such a counterpoise into a length of hose pipe are truly wishful thinkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
Bill-

Read that a little more carefully. I was NOT saying you cant get a signal out with the KISS counterpoise. Its actually in my bilge right now. Although I already had an effective counterpoise, i figured a bit more wire down there wouldn't hurt, and it doesn't seem to.

And "magic" is exactly what I like to dispel. Along with misleading claims of scientific solutions. Call it what it is. A solution to a problem, but dont make it out to be what it isnt.

Chip
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Old 14-01-2012, 19:33   #114
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Re: SSB Advice

I cost it out at less than 25 dollars. You dont need to buy 600ft of wire. Electrically the KISS is just the equivalent of 1 radial that is the same physical length as the KISS. You cant stuff 600 pounds of bologna into 10 pound hose electrically. Thats the way RF will always be!
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
As with all things, you need to look at the price difference, so what would it cost you to make a clone of the KISS??

10' hose @ $1 = $10
600' marine wire #16 @ $0.20 = $120
lead wire, terminals, endcap $10

total $140.-

huh?! it costs as much making it myself!

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 14-01-2012, 19:45   #115
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Re: SSB Advice

Its exactly the same as a backstay fed antenna. The only difference is that your feedpoint is up in the air. Coax feeding such a reactive antenna with coax produces high losses. the only real advantage of your antenna is that it might have slightly less ground loss. This however will be offset by the greater losses because you are operating a coax into a very HIGH VSWR. I am sure it works like everything else in radio. Even a Miracle whip works. Marine antenna tuners cant handle such a low impedance only because of the high circulating RF currents. You antenna tuner probably can handle this antenna however it is very high loss.. If you get a proper low impedance tuner designed for tuning marine short whips like those from Harris they can tune an antenna like yours without any problems. Another such antenna tuner is one designed for aircraft antennas. If we were going to have a antenna shootout, my money would be on the normal backstay antenna with a SGC230 as the winner. If you antenna was fed with open wire feedline it will win if you use the mast as a ground for the feed point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wireless1 View Post
My experience over the last 30 years or so has shown that the best HF antenna for a sailboat (sloop) has not been mentioned or discussed yet in this thread. The antenna that I have found that consistently out performs any other sailboat antenna is called a sloper. It is electrically the opposite of the regular backstay antenna discussed here in that you connect your transmitter's COAX feedline at the TOP of your insulated backstay. You do this by using a radio rigging insulator mounted right at the masthead (marine eye on a toggle...see photo). Now, I can hear you saying; If this is such a great antenna then why don't more people know about it and why isn't everyone using one? Well...there's a couple of drawbacks with this antenna but they aren't about the antenna. They are about the setup desired, and the end users. Here's why;
1.) The sloper MUST be connected to the backstay right at the masthead using coax cable not a single wire feedline. That let's out all the users that require automatic antenna tuners with single wire output fittings. Marine auto antenna tuners are simply not set up to tune an antenna fed with coax cable. Sorry...
2.) Because of number one, you must use a manual antenna tuner. That lets out users that don't want to take the trouble to learn how to tune their antenna each time they change bands. It takes a bit of practice, or a knack if you will, to learn to use the manual tuners quickly. But once you get the hang of it, (and write down your settings for each band) it's not a big deal at all. So folks that like to push the button and talk...well...sorry.
3.) You have to install the sloper when your mast is down because you need to feed the coax cable up inside the mast to the masthead through the mast's PVC wiring tube. (you do have one of those I hope)

Now, on the plus side?
1.) You don't need to worry about trying to hook up a ground counterpoise inside the hull of your boat because the sloper uses the rest of the mast, upper shrouds, lower shrouds, and anything that is grounded to the mast as it's counterpoise. (the braid of the coax cable gets connected to the shrouds with a stainless strap---see photo) In essence the backstay now "sees" the rest of the entire rig as it's counterpoise and is USING the rigging to benefit instead of the rigging being in the way and absorbing some of your signal when you connect your backstay at the bottom.
2.) You won't have hot RF running around your electrical panel lighting up lights and giving you RF burns if you touch something that the signal is using for it's counterpoise because your counterpoise is no longer in the boat....it's in the rigging.
2.) But lastly, the best part and why the sloper antenna radiates so well, (for you electronic geeks out there) is that the current loop of the sloper (the part that radiates your signal out into space) is now way up at the masthead and not down in a locker below decks where you mounted your automatic antenna tuner. (the current loop in a bottom fed auto-tuned antenna is near the antenna tuner and bottom portion of the antenna (your backstay). For anyone interested in the technical reasons why, there are volumes written on voltage loops and current loops in unbalanced non-resonant coax fed antennas---but we won't be going into that here. Suffice to say one can "see" a lot further from the top of their mast than from poking their head out the lazzarette!

The photo supplied here is of the masthead fittings on my sloper I installed on my old Rawson 30 that finished up a seven year circumnavigation. The sloper fared very well and there were no problems at all caused by using this "upside-down" antenna. If it's hard to see in the photo, but the large black cable exiting the mast is RG-213x coax cable with a PL-259 plug on the end. That PL-259 plug screws into a SO-239 female coax connector that is mounted on a .040" stainless grounding strap that is screwed to the masthead, and also runs up and over the masthead and is clamped with hose clamps to the headstay which insures that the braid of the coax cable makes a good solid ground connection to the rigging. In reality ALL the rigging measures as ground on the braid side of the coax cable so the entire rig becomes the counterpoise for the "top fed" or upside-down antenna.

Hope this gives some food for thought. If anyone is interested I can tell of some real world tests I have done with this antenna but this has been a "wordy" post so I'll sign off for now...
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Old 14-01-2012, 20:29   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jurgen99
I cost it out at less than 25 dollars. You dont need to buy 600ft of wire. Electrically the KISS is just the equivalent of 1 radial that is the same physical length as the KISS. You cant stuff 600 pounds of bologna into 10 pound hose electrically. Thats the way RF will always be!
Yeah right, bologna; you're really cool and macho!

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 15-01-2012, 00:47   #117
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Re: SSB Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurgen99 View Post
you the only smart person here! next they will be offering the KISS ground rolled up into a matchbox and claim that it works. The fact is that any piece of crap attached to the earth lug will work. This is not the issue. Working a long distance does not tell you the efficiency of the system. I have worked stations on a dummy load, and that is the least efficient antenna in the world! The KISS is flawed concept and those who sing praises for it are really doing people a huge disservice. I can achieve the same with a ordinary piece of wire. What gets me is that whoever uses the KISS has never actually used a similar length of wire and swapped between the KISS and the piece of 10 cent wire. The result will be the same. Loaded counterpoises is a failed concept in ham radio circles and create a lot of problems. The stupidity of people who think that somehow you can ""load"" counterpoise indicates how poor their understanding of how a simple antenna like a vertical radiator actually works. Hams having been struggling for decades trying to shrink and make a counterpoise or ground system on verticals small and to make them disappear, all the results have so far failed. The simple fact that counterpoise efficiency is tied to radiation efficiency of the antenna is missed by the supposed experts. Nobody is saying that it does not WORK. The fact is that the size automatically dictates that the KISS is poor choice and therefore radiation efficiency is low. Why the KISS does not fail in lousy manner is that its installed over seawater. The ground conductivity is so high over seawater it is the reason why even the crappiest ground counter poise or even a wet rope connected to the earth terminal will work. If the KISS was such a tremendous performer and you used it on land it would be an equally good performance. We all know what would happen if you attached a kiss to a fully size 1/4 wave vertical, the impact on the impedance would be minimal o and its performance would terrible simply indicating that it is a very poor counterpoise. If the KISS people had credibility they would quantify the equivalent ground loss improvement that KISS would contribute on all frequencies. Since they dont have this data we know the concept is rubbish. The KISS is a poorly though out concept that is no different to the equivalent length of wire. Anyone who says any different has a very poor understanding of how a counterpoise actually works and what its intended purpose is. What also is striking in this case, is that the antenna to be used with this poor KISS counterpoise is a short antenna with poor efficiency on the lower frequencies. Such low efficient antennas require the very best counterpoise possible. Introducing a small counter poise into the radiation efficiency argument is silly at best. Short verticals and Ship whips were designed to be used with a very large proper counterpoise, those who think that you can shrink such a counterpoise into a length of hose pipe are truly wishful thinkers.

O crap! Now I am back to square one!

All I want to do is to figure out how to connect about 10 bloody wires, so that I can use my SSB Icom 710 and my icom at130.

SO information has been don't follow Icom's directions: Jedi being snotty: Sorry but that is the way you come across. I am an absolute novice!!! I don't understand. To ask for clarification should not seem like heresy.

FerRite? What size what shape? How many per wire? Counter poise? Kiss yes no/ Do you ground the Icom 710 or not. The

Guys, please understand I have many skills 3 higher degrees! I can navigate you up and down one of the wildest coast on the planet. But I havent a bloody clue on what sort of wire to connect my radio to the tuner, what to ground and what not to ground, using sheilded wires or not.

Sod it! !
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Old 15-01-2012, 05:19   #118
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Originally Posted by NorthPacific

O crap! Now I am back to square one!

All I want to do is to figure out how to connect about 10 bloody wires, so that I can use my SSB Icom 710 and my icom at130.

SO information has been don't follow Icom's directions: Jedi being snotty: Sorry but that is the way you come across. I am an absolute novice!!! I don't understand. To ask for clarification should not seem like heresy.
Right. I'm sorry too, but I promise that I'll not try to help you again. If you don't understand what I wrote, you should not attempt the install yourself, ask someone with a bit of sense on electrical jobs, instead of calling me names for not spelling it out to you the way you like!

Cheers,
Nick.
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Old 15-01-2012, 06:37   #119
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Nortpacific -

Go ahead and choose the advice that makes the most sense to you and fits your finances Install the radio. Try it out. Make changes if not satisfied.

If you aren't comfortable with it, do as Nick says and find a reputable installer to do it for you.

Chip
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Old 15-01-2012, 08:23   #120
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Re: SSB Advice

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If you aren't comfortable with it, do as Nick says and find a reputable installer to do it for you.
Oh my, now he's gonna call you snotty too

ciao!
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