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Old 03-01-2012, 07:19   #46
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Re: SSB Advice

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Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
There is no 600 ft of wire in the KISS. Just read some the other threads before you drink the Kool-Aid - if it matters to you. I would argue you could duplicate its functionality with a single 14 ft piece of 10 gauge wire, but no point hashing over all the arguments in this thread too.
Nobody ever showed how much wire is inside the KISS. As long as that isn't shown, it's over 600' as stated by KISS. Or did I miss something?

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:34   #47
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I bought one and disassembled it. Pictures in another thread.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:51   #48
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Re: SSB Advice

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I bought one and disassembled it. Pictures in another thread.
Yes I have read it. It does not state the length of the wires that came out the hose, does it?

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Old 03-01-2012, 22:12   #49
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Re: SSB Advice

Well big day! My Icom 710 arrived via ebay! Looks like a good piece of kit. My vocabulary is getting longer every time I read a post from you guys or now read the manual for this beasty!

So slight technical problem! the wires sticking out of the back one for power and one for the tuner I think need dedicated bits? Do I buy or show off my leatherman skills? :-)
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Old 03-01-2012, 22:18   #50
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Re: SSB Advice

I reckon this kiss idea seems good to me. If it works for 140 then that is a good investment. Sooner is your point that the Kiss is a rip off or does not work in your opinion? Honest question.

When I can afford to buy the bits to tie this thing together I will have to decide the type and where the arial will go. Up to our necks in snow and 60knot winds for the next few months so no rush.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:37   #51
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Re: SSB Advice

I don't doubt that the KISS provides a counterpoise that will let you get a signal out. I don't know how effective it is in relation to other solutions. Plenty of cruisers seem happy with it based on their ability to make distant contacts, but this is an unreliable method for assessing the efficiency of a setup. I talked to Japan from Texas on New Years Eve with 10 watts going into a very inefficient antenna system - propagation was very good at that time. It was by no means a good measure of effective radiated power, and if conditions were marginal it would not have done the job.

My beef is the way the KISS has been described and marketed by the builder. He implies that it is something that it is not in an effort to justify its expense beyond similar simpler and cheaper solutions that I strongly suspect would work as well.

I am not telling anyone not to buy and use a KISS. I just would like people to be aware that there are other ways to accomplish the same thing with much less cost.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:23   #52
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Re: SSB Advice

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Originally Posted by SoonerSailor View Post
My beef is the way the KISS has been described and marketed by the builder. He implies that it is something that it is not in an effort to justify its expense beyond similar simpler and cheaper solutions that I strongly suspect would work as well.
Regardless of your beef, I don't think I'm alone in having great success with the intallation of the KISS SSB Counterpoise, or whatever you want to call this device. Our Icom802 with the 140 tuner originally installed with multiple feet of copper foil, dynaplate, produced incessant levels of ground looping and other issues. Not only did the KISS work as advertised, it resolved many annoying RF issues related to a dynaplate used in the traditional installation. You can call the KISS pretty much anything but it still remains an elegant solution, saving time in labor (money) and the installation of foil (more money $1.50 per foot) and the dynaplate (much more money, list $180.00 and needs replacement time to time). For those that still continue to bash the KISS, please show us something that works better, that's less expensive having the same ease of installation.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:43   #53
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Re: SSB Advice

"I don't doubt that the KISS provides a counterpoise that will let you get a signal out."

That statement is over-the-top WRONG!

Sooner,

What is it that makes you disbelieve all the good to great reports of actual users? Are you basing your doubts on real experience or on theoretical concerns?

You say in another thread...and repeat in this one... that you "took one apart". Did you actual USE IT before you took it apart?

Bill
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:49   #54
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Re: SSB Advice

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Originally Posted by NorthPacific View Post
Well big day! My Icom 710 arrived via ebay! Looks like a good piece of kit. My vocabulary is getting longer every time I read a post from you guys or now read the manual for this beasty!

So slight technical problem! the wires sticking out of the back one for power and one for the tuner I think need dedicated bits? Do I buy or show off my leatherman skills? :-)
There should be only one wire "sticking out" the back of the M710. That's the tuner wire, and it should have a connector on it. My experience in installing and troubleshooting these is that this connector is a disaster. Not only is the pin contact arrangement flimsy and subject to easy damage, but the connector isn't even splashproof much less waterproof, and there's no easy way to protect it.

I don't know why Icom continues to furnish this troublesome part. In troubleshooting a NEW M710 recently, I came across one of these connectors which was defective right out of the box. Also, Icom charges an arm and a leg for the 4-conductor wire to go between the radio and the tuner.

Best solution: cut off these stupid connectors and wire the control cable directly, being very careful to get the colors right. Use pink 3M adhesive heat-shrink butt connectors (crimped with a proper crimper for heat-shrink terminals), and when you're done cover these with good electrical tape or adhesive heat shrink tubing or other protective covering, both for strength and for watertight/airtight integrity.

If you didn't get a power cord with the radio, you can buy one on Ebay or elsewhere. Be sure it's the 6-pin Molex connector to match the one on the back of the radio.

Bill
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:52   #55
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Re: SSB Advice

I am thinking that SoonerSailor had thought to find magical devices inside the tube and not finding them was a disappointment to him.

But the most effective radials can be made with... wire. And coils can be made with... wire. SoonerSailor seems to think that different lengths of wire inside the hose work the same as just one single wire. And also that folding a wire up and down results in the same thing as a piece of wire of the short folded length. This is why he keeps repeating that a single 14' piece of wire is the same thing.

ciao!
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:57   #56
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Bill-

Read that a little more carefully. I was NOT saying you cant get a signal out with the KISS counterpoise. Its actually in my bilge right now. Although I already had an effective counterpoise, i figured a bit more wire down there wouldn't hurt, and it doesn't seem to.

And "magic" is exactly what I like to dispel. Along with misleading claims of scientific solutions. Call it what it is. A solution to a problem, but dont make it out to be what it isnt.

Chip
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:02   #57
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Re: SSB Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I am thinking that SoonerSailor had thought to find magical devices inside the tube and not finding them was a disappointment to him.

But the most effective radials can be made with... wire. And coils can be made with... wire. SoonerSailor seems to think that different lengths of wire inside the hose work the same as just one single wire. And also that folding a wire up and down results in the same thing as a piece of wire of the short folded length. This is why he keeps repeating that a single 14' piece of wire is the same thing.

ciao!
Nick.
Nick,

Yeah, maybe. Unfortunately, the marine SSB literature is rife with erroneous statements and concepts, and these tend to color the thinking of those who believe them.

Among these is the famous "you can't use wire for an RF ground or counterpoise, because RF travels on the outside surface and you need wide copper stripping". REALLY? Then why is a wire dipole so effective? And why is it used as a reference (dBd) for almost ALL ANTENNAS OF ANY KIND?

I'd certainly agree with Sooner that it's perfectly possible to build your own radial or other counterpoise system which would work as well as or better than the KISS. However, that would not be a single 10' wire. I've built lots of them on boats over the past 20+ years, and have written extensively about these alternatives. Some of these were relatively easy to implement, others took heroic measures. And, none of them cost less than the KISS in terms of planning, materials, and time.

Cheers and Happy New Year,

73,

Bill
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:05   #58
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Re: SSB Advice

Chip,

We cross-posted.

Try this. Remove all the other RF grounds from your tuner. Connect just the KISS. You don't need it deep in the bilge....it's not intended to "couple to seawater", but stands on its own as an elevated radial system.

Now, use that for awhile. Just that. Then, come back and tell us what you experienced, including RFI effects (many boats have found that the system helps cure some mighty troublesome RFI onboard, including Nordhaven which has adopted the KISS after curing their RF in the autopilot problem).

Cheers,

Bill
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:23   #59
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When I get back to the boat in the Spring I'll try to do some relative field strength measurements at several frequencies with the KISS, my existing counterpoise, and a simple 14ft wire or two. I can cobble together an RF field detector which should give reliable relative measurements of the near field.

As Ive discussed elsewhere, an antenna analyzer hasn't found much difference in resonance or impedance between the KISS and a simple wire. Maybe this will show something different.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:05   #60
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As for RFI in boat electronics, that can be of either of two causes:

1. Portions of boat wiring picking up strong radiated power from the antenna, or

2. Boat wiring functioning as part of the other half of the antenna system and carrying some of the return current that the couterpoise is intended to handle.

Reduce your radiated power and the RFI is reduced too. Improve your RF grounding and/or shielding of your wiring, and the problem from #1 gets better. Isolate your boat wiring from RF ground and provide more and better paths for return currents and the problem from #2 is reduced. Its hard to know by what mechanism(s) RFI was reduced in Nordhavn's instance.

Chip
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