So, Why do I need a Ham License in Mexico?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No the stated countries specifically operate cept Tr 61-01 cross recognition. They do not have individual agreements with individual cept countries. That's what I mean when I said participate in cept.

Dave

Not all CEPT countries participate in TR 61-01, which is a recommendation from CEPT - a standardized reciprocal operating agreement formulated by CEPT and given as a recommendation to CEPT members. So there are indeed individual reciprocal operating agreements with each CEPT member which has adopted TR 61-01. Russia and the U.S. recently signed one, so now Russian hams can operate in U.S. and U.S. Extra class hams can operate in Russia under TR 61-01.

There is a separate recommendation covering U.S. General class hams, so far adopted by far fewer CEPT countries (TR 61-01 only covers Extra class hams; Generals can only operate in the few CEPT countries that have adopted Recommendation 56(06)).

All this is a fairly meaningless legalistic quibble, but for the sake of good order and all that.

[goboatingnow]

Not all CEPT countries participate in TR 61-01, which is a recommendation from CEPT - a standardized reciprocal operating agreement formulated by CEPT and given as a recommendation to CEPT members

could you elaborate, I was reliably informed that CEPT members and signatories to TR 61-01 must cross recognise whatever grade of license they regards as CEPT compatible. IN Cept member countries there is no other license then the CEPT one now.

Dave

[Sailor_Hutch]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not all CEPT countries participate in TR 61-01, which is a recommendation from CEPT - a standardized reciprocal operating agreement formulated by CEPT and given as a recommendation to CEPT members. So there are indeed individual reciprocal operating agreements with each CEPT member which has adopted TR 61-01. Russia and the U.S. recently signed one, so now Russian hams can operate in U.S. and U.S. Extra class hams can operate in Russia under TR 61-01.

There is a separate recommendation covering U.S. General class hams, so far adopted by far fewer CEPT countries (TR 61-01 only covers Extra class hams; Generals can only operate in the few CEPT countries that have adopted Recommendation 56(06)).

All this is a fairly meaningless legalistic quibble, but for the sake of good order and all that.

I wonder where that puts me with an "advanced class" license? Could have kicked myself years ago, when I didn't go for the extra, since the only testing difference was 7 wpm of code speed...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

could you elaborate, I was reliably informed that CEPT members and signatories to TR 61-01 must cross recognise whatever grade of license they regards as CEPT compatible. IN Cept member countries there is no other license then the CEPT one now.

Dave

CEPT doesn't have the power to dictate to CEPT members what laws they pass, so each one individually has to implement 61-01 with its own laws. In any case, the main point is that not all CEPT members have implemented 61-01 at all, so not all of them offer even each other's hams reciprocity, much less American hams. Whether there are any which have implemented 61-01 but without including the U.S., I don't know.

Countries which are members of CEPT but which have not implemented TR 61-01 are mostly smaller ones:

Azerbaijan, Belarus, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Moldova, Vatican City.

Russia was the last big CEPT country to give U.S. hams the right to operate under 61-01.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch

I wonder where that puts me with an "advanced class" license? Could have kicked myself years ago, when I didn't go for the extra, since the only testing difference was 7 wpm of code speed...

Advanced is the same was Extra for those purposes. You are covered under TR 61-01

[ka4wja]

rebel heart,
Your thread seems to be drifting somewhat, but back on point to your original question....
Others have given you some of the legal whys and wherefores of a ham radio license requirement....as it is not only required under:
a) international law...
b) the law in over 190 countries worldwide...
c) but also the law in international waters and international airspace....

But what worries me is that it appears that nobody has asked you what, where, why and with who you wish to communicate to???
And, nobody has mentioned the main purpose (and limitations) of the amateur radio service ("ham radio") to you (nor the fact that the maritime mobile radio service is usually better suited to most "non-technical" cruising sailors)!!!

As these two aspects ("what you require HF radio for" and the "main purpose and principles of the amateur radio service") are truly VEERY important, and without knowing them it is very difficult to know exactly what to recommend to you, nor how to answer your questions in great detail...

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Just curious about this, I looked around and couldn't quite figure it out. We're here in Mexico, and then taking it a step further on the high seas, why exactly do I need to have a license from the USA to transmit?

When I hear the ham nets, at least around here, it's clear that it's primarily English speaking Americans and it's frequent to hear "If you don't have a ham license you cannot transmit."

In Mexico?

1000 miles out to sea?

Seems kind of odd.

Yes, to use the Amateur Radio Service (i.e. ham radio), you must be licensed for it, and operate under the specific terms and restrictions of your license class, as well as those of the country that you are currently in (or their territorial waters)....if in international waters, you must comply with the laws / rules of your nation's license and whatever their special restrictions may be for vessels in various parts of the world's oceans....(such as US hams being able to use "voice" modes as low as 7075 kHz when south of 20*N latitude in ITU Region 2, etc....)
Sorry if this all seems odd, but I suspect that is because nobody has explained the purpose and principles of the amateur radio service (or that of the maritime mobile radio service) to you....and therefore you may not be aware of the radio services available that best suit your needs/requirements, such as the maritime mobile radio service (what many sailors refer to as "SSB")....

I've written about this in the past, both here on Cruiser's Forum and elsewhere, so I'll not ramble on and on too much...
For some details on the subjects of "ham licenses" and "Marine SSB", please have a look here at this discussion from this January, titled "Ham License"....
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-4.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-5.html



But, in brief....
The Amateur Radio Service (i.e. Ham Radio) is set-up and regulated both under international law and individually by the governments of over 190 countries worldwide....and this of course DOES include vessels in international waters ("on the high seas") and aircraft in international airspace....

Under international law and US federal law the purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service have been the same for many, many decades....
US FCC Part 97.1

§97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur’s proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur’s unique ability to enhance international goodwill.

rebel heart, this of course does NOT mean that if you find the purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service to be appealing to you, that you cannot study for the exams and attain a ham license (if a US Citizen, you'd want the "Extra Class" amateur license, as it's the only one that is typically recognized by other governments and honored under reciprocal agreements / CEPT, etc. for HF amateur radio communications)....

But you may in fact, find that the maritime mobile radio service ("Marine SSB") to actually be better suited to your needs....
Please read the referenced threads, for more details...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-4.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-5.html


Unfortunately most that sell radios to sailors, and those that write articles about radios on boats, as well as many of those posting on websites, etc. don't usually mention what various radio services are available...and I suspect that many don't actually have much knowledge of the details of any of these services, let alone the basic purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service.....
And, as you see the Amateur Radio Service is far from a "hobby", but is a radio "service", with very well defined purposes and principles.....yes, many of us that "love" radio, do embrace it as one of our hobbies, but it is truly a radio service and not a hobby....
(and BTW, it is called the "Amateur Radio Service", not to differentiate it from "paid" services, but rather to describe those that adhere to the purpose and uphold these principles do so for the "love" of radio, as the Latin root of amateur is ama / amo, i.e "love")



I do hope this helps clear up some confusion....
Fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie

[madsb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

IN Cept member countries there is no other license then the CEPT one now.

Actually there are: The most basic Danish amateur license is not a CEPT license. I don't know if there are other examples of this.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

rebel heart,
Your thread seems to be drifting somewhat, but back on point to your original question....
Others have given you some of the legal whys and wherefores of a ham radio license requirement....as it is not only required under:
a) international law...
b) the law in over 190 countries worldwide...
c) but also the law in international waters and international airspace....

But what worries me is that it appears that nobody has asked you what, where, why and with who you wish to communicate to???
And, nobody has mentioned the main purpose (and limitations) of the amateur radio service ("ham radio") to you (nor the fact that the maritime mobile radio service is usually better suited to most "non-technical" cruising sailors)!!!

As these two aspects ("what you require HF radio for" and the "main purpose and principles of the amateur radio service") are truly VEERY important, and without knowing them it is very difficult to know exactly what to recommend to you, nor how to answer your questions in great detail... Yes, to use the Amateur Radio Service (i.e. ham radio), you must be licensed for it, and operate under the specific terms and restrictions of your license class, as well as those of the country that you are currently in (or their territorial waters)....if in international waters, you must comply with the laws / rules of your nation's license and whatever their special restrictions may be for vessels in various parts of the world's oceans....(such as US hams being able to use "voice" modes as low as 7075 kHz when south of 20*N latitude in ITU Region 2, etc....)
Sorry if this all seems odd, but I suspect that is because nobody has explained the purpose and principles of the amateur radio service (or that of the maritime mobile radio service) to you....and therefore you may not be aware of the radio services available that best suit your needs/requirements, such as the maritime mobile radio service (what many sailors refer to as "SSB")....

I've written about this in the past, both here on Cruiser's Forum and elsewhere, so I'll not ramble on and on too much...
For some details on the subjects of "ham licenses" and "Marine SSB", please have a look here at this discussion from this January, titled "Ham License"....
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-4.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-5.html



But, in brief....
The Amateur Radio Service (i.e. Ham Radio) is set-up and regulated both under international law and individually by the governments of over 190 countries worldwide....and this of course DOES include vessels in international waters ("on the high seas") and aircraft in international airspace....

Under international law and US federal law the purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service have been the same for many, many decades....
US FCC Part 97.1




rebel heart, this of course does NOT mean that if you find the purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service to be appealing to you, that you cannot study for the exams and attain a ham license (if a US Citizen, you'd want the "Extra Class" amateur license, as it's the only one that is typically recognized by other governments and honored under reciprocal agreements / CEPT, etc. for HF amateur radio communications)....

But you may in fact, find that the maritime mobile radio service ("Marine SSB") to actually be better suited to your needs....
Please read the referenced threads, for more details...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-4.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-96774-5.html


Unfortunately most that sell radios to sailors, and those that write articles about radios on boats, as well as many of those posting on websites, etc. don't usually mention what various radio services are available...and I suspect that many don't actually have much knowledge of the details of any of these services, let alone the basic purpose and principles of the Amateur Radio Service.....
And, as you see the Amateur Radio Service is far from a "hobby", but is a radio "service", with very well defined purposes and principles.....yes, many of us that "love" radio, do embrace it as one of our hobbies, but it is truly a radio service and not a hobby....
(and BTW, it is called the "Amateur Radio Service", not to differentiate it from "paid" services, but rather to describe those that adhere to the purpose and uphold these principles do so for the "love" of radio, as the Latin root of amateur is ama / amo, i.e "love")



I do hope this helps clear up some confusion....
Fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie

To continue this theme a bit --

Ham radio has a very different operating procedure and operating style from marine SSB. Marine radios are not supposed to be used to just chew the rag -- you are supposed to follow a particular procedure and pass a particular message, and then get off the air. You are not supposed to make calls to all ships (except in specific situations), and you are not supposed to call to no one, just to see who's out there, although of course people sometimes do it, and of course the breeze does get shot from time to time on the marine SSB nets.

Ham radio is quite the opposite -- it is indeed all about calling no one in particular ("CQ, CQ, CQ!") and just shooting the breeze with no particular purpose. Therefore, on ham radio you'll find people listening and waiting for you to call CQ, just to shoot the breeze with you.

Ham radio is also about playing around with radios and radio technology, and there are all kinds of toys -- digital modes like PSK31, talking through satellites, trying out different bands and modes, etc., etc., etc. On the VHF/UHF ham bands there are repeaters all over the world, many of which are linked up with each other over Echolink.

You can get patched into the phone system to make non-business calls, and you have free use of the Winlink system for non-business emails.

There's nothing really essential in ham radio for a cruising sailor, and for some sailors it will seem like a waste of time, but it's a hobby which, for many people, goes together really well with being in remote places, and roaming between remote places. It can be a real window to the world when you're far out at sea with no other means of communication.


To get into it, you will want to pass all three exams and get qualified as an Extra, as John mentioned. I did this myself last March. For a person with a humanities background (music, philosophy, law, business), I found the material, which involves a lot of math and electrical engineering, to be very, very hard, but extremely interesting, and I passed all three at one sitting after several days and nights of extremely intense cramming (I studied more for this than I did for the bar exam, incidentally). But it was worth it, because without the Extra qualification, you will not get any reciprocity for HF bands much anywhere. You do not, these days, of course, need to know any Morse Code.

[rebel heart]

Holy crap, seven pages!

[Teknav]

Hi Rebel! Now you know why talk is NOT really cheap, when you buy your HAM toys!

Mauritz
Going to behave now!

[svseawitch]

I would like to ask for advice on the value of ham vs SSB in mexico. We cruised mexico in 1998 for a couple of years and were very active on ham. This was the very beginning of pactor so everything was on nets.

Recently, someone told me that "more of the nets are SSB now". And that there was not much on HAM and that Sailmail stations were more reachable from mexico than winlink

We have both SSB and Ham and are trying to decide if it is worth spending the $ on the XE2 recips.

Looking for opinions from folks that are in or have been in mexico recently....thnx

[jamhass]

Originally Posted by svseawitch

I would like to ask for advice on the value of ham vs SSB in mexico. We cruised mexico in 1998 for a couple of years and were very active on ham. This was the very beginning of pactor so everything was on nets.

Recently, someone told me that "more of the nets are SSB now". And that there was not much on HAM and that Sailmail stations were more reachable from mexico than winlink

We have both SSB and Ham and are trying to decide if it is worth spending the $ on the XE2 recips.

Looking for opinions from folks that are in or have been in mexico recently....thnx

You will likely get LOTS of opinions on this but let me say that no matter how you do it, a HAM license is worth having. If nothing else the Sonrisa net (with Geary's weather) itself is worthwhile, and it is a bonus to participate as opposed to just listening.

Re getting the XE2:

There are two issues, the first of which is the bureaucratic hassle of getting it.

The second, and in my mind, more serious issue is that the XE2 is only good for the duration of your visa (6 months max if on a tourist "visa")

Some folks deal with it by getting the XE2 once, then just append the XE2 even after the reciprocal has expired. Other just ignore the reciprocal entirely. Most folks on longer term visas tend to get the reciprocal.

So it is up to you. I've not heard of anyone getting nailed for not having an XE2, but let the buyer beware.

Only radio issue I've heard of was last year in Mazatlan, there was some monitoring of shore-based VHF traffic and fines levied to users on the air for longer than some poorly-determined limit. Never heard the outcome of all that.

[svseawitch]

No disagreement on ham license. My wife and I are both extras and were volunteer examiners. Ran some of the nets during our circumnavigation.
Getting a basic license is easy now. If someone has an ICOM 802 they already have a ham radio. Very little reason to not get your license.


The question I was asking was about the nets and also winlink. Are the ham nets still up and running. Back in 1998, There was a guy that was doing weather out of his van every morning. And a guy in Texas?? Brett (not sure of the name ) running the morning net. Had a few folks tell me they thought most of the ham nets went away and that winlink stations were not reachable. So, I'm wondering if what to do about comms when we head down. Do I signup for sailmail again? Do I find another source of weather.... That is the reason I was asking about ham in mexico. Maybe I should have made a new thread. Not sure how to do that. I won't be offended if someone wasn't to pm or email me telling me I should have created a new thread or ..........

[jamhass]

Originally Posted by svseawitch

So, I'm wondering if what to do about comms when we head down. Do I signup for sailmail again? Do I find another source of weather.... That is the reason I was asking about ham in mexico.

Yes, most of the popular nets in Mexico are still active. Sonrisa (Ham), and Amigo (SSB) are two very popular morning nets, and here are several others. The evening Southbound net "died" last year and may or may not be resurrected. Best google or go to Noonsight or Club Cruceros to get current schedules and frequencies.

And yes, I find both sailmail and Winlink to be very useful. Sometimes traffic and/or propagation makes one better than the other. Of course, you cannot legally do "business" over winlink, so Sailmail does have its own advantages.

Both Sailmail and Winlink give you excellent access to a wide variety of weather info, including most popular forecasts (both Geary's and Solmate Santiago's) as well as gribs, weather faxes, etc.

Enjoy