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Old 11-05-2013, 14:24   #61
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, from cold boot. But the display will not, as it is booting the OS and then executing the radar app, initializing with sensors etc. Then, as soon as the display is ready, you can view radar. I recon this goes hand in hand with that power usage argument: people switch it off completely. For pulse radar, one has the same display startup but then the magnetron must warm up before you can transmit. This is why it is put in a stand-bye mode, after which it is immediate transmit like the 4G.

I.e. the 4G consumes less power when you do NOT transmit with the radar as it does not need to keep a magnetron warm. When both transmit it still uses a bit less but that translates in lesser performance on range and weather. When switching off between uses, the pulse radar needs to warm up again.

All silly in case you run the radar for whole periods. I guess small boats switch it off most of the time so they have power for nav lights etc.
DotDun's numbers show the magnetron kept warm but not transmitting uses 1.3A (not connected power less the power when connected and in stdby). This could be considered significant, depending on how one views power, but the actual power difference will be determined by how much the radar is "on". If the radar is never used, then it is significant. If the radar is used often, it becomes insignificant.

Perhaps the marketing would be more truthful if they touted the decreased power draw when not in use? It still is nowhere near "profound".

And it is the opposite meaning than that which people use when they mention the power advantage of 3/4G over pulse units.

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Old 11-05-2013, 14:42   #62
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
These are some of the complementary features I'm talking about. In theory:

- 4G has better close range resolution

- 4G comes on right away

- Pulse has longer range

- Pulse is better at imaging weather

- Pulse is better at imaging distant land masses.

- But wither will do just fine if it's all you have.

Yes, I happen to have the space for both, and don't want to be off in east bum-tuck stuck with a dead radar, hence the desire for two. All aspects of my nav gear has at least one backup in case something breaks. Most similar boats have dual pulse radars, typically one 4' and one 6'. I like the idea of having both pulse and 4G instead of dual pulse radars. You get both diversity and redundancy.
I spent a couple of weeks sailing in the Sea of Cortez on a big Swan with two radars, one of them a large open array. Wow, what a radar. We used it primarily for navigation, as we saw maybe three other vessels during the entire cruise. The charts of that area are carp, an it was brilliant being able to paint the whole coastline and precisely measure distance off.

If you have space for it, that, of course, is the very t*ts.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:09   #63
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by CAELESTIS View Post
Do you first choose the radar, and then end up with the matching MFD, or the other way around? I use the MFD far more than radar, so that is my decision process.

Dockhead is right, the Zeus is utterly amazing.
I would also consider chart availability for your cruising region in the decision criteria. Just back from the Bahamas, cruising with (2) buddy boats, one with RM E7 and the other with Simrad NSO. They found the charts on both those totally unacceptable. Both ended up using Garmin on a handheld/tablet to navigate Bahamian waters. The C-MAP (Jeppessen) on my NavNet3D must be based on Explorer Charts as it was identical to Bluechart on the iPad, which is excellent.

A chartplotter with useless charts is, well useless.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:24   #64
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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I would also consider chart availability for your cruising region in the decision criteria. Just back from the Bahamas, cruising with (2) buddy boats, one with RM E7 and the other with Simrad NSO. They found the charts on both those totally unacceptable. Both ended up using Garmin on a handheld/tablet to navigate Bahamian waters. The C-MAP (Jeppessen) on my NavNet3D must be based on Explorer Charts as it was identical to Bluechart on the iPad, which is excellent.

A chartplotter with useless charts is, well useless.
A very good point. The Simrad/ B&G plotters now take both Navionics and cMap charts, a huge advantage. Hope the other makers follow suit. Being locked into one set of charts sucks.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:26   #65
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There were 2 key reasons for me to go for navnet3d:

1. The radar.
2. The support for C-Map charts.

Do I like the chart plotting functions? Well, not as much as what MaxSea TimeZero Explorer gives me but much better than the Raytheon plotter I had before. I might end up using MaxSea all the time as radar support is also awesome and I get it all on iPad using SplashTop.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:47   #66
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

Charts are one of the many reasons I prefer computer-based charting programs. Heck, I make my own electronic charts for many areas using software and scanned charts or Google Earth. For many areas like parts of Columbia and the San Blas, there are excellent paper charts, but no electronic equivalents. Chartplotters are so restrictive regarding charts - even the ones that give you limited choices.

CMap has licensed the Explorer charts, which are the only accurate charts in the Bahamas. But they do cost extra - they are not part of the normal CMap pack covering the Bahamas, I think they are a specific Bahamas-only package.

Seems when I was looking 1.5 years ago, Furuno was the only one offering both Navionics and CMap. Good to see Navico going that way also.

So far through San Blas, Panama, Providencia, Vivorillos, Hobbies, Guanaja and Roatan, I have not seen any difference between the Navionics and CMap charts (they have both been widely and equally incorrect everywhere). The biggest difference is that CMap sells wide area sections for the same price as Navionics charges for narrow, specific areas. So CMap turns out much less expensive.

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Old 12-05-2013, 09:58   #67
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, from cold boot.
I was presuming that the chart plotters were already on, so it's just startup time of the radar. If the pulse is already warmed up and on standby then I agree it's "startup" time is the same (I think) as 4G.

But you bring up another interesting point which is the startup time of the chart plotters. That's one of the things on my list of don't like's for NN3D. The plotters take a very long time to boot up. I haven't timed it, but I'd estimate it at 4-5 minutes. The Simrad NSO boots in 1:20.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:06   #68
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I was presuming that the chart plotters were already on, so it's just startup time of the radar. If the pulse is already warmed up and on standby then I agree it's "startup" time is the same (I think) as 4G.

But you bring up another interesting point which is the startup time of the chart plotters. That's one of the things on my list of don't like's for NN3D. The plotters take a very long time to boot up. I haven't timed it, but I'd estimate it at 4-5 minutes. The Simrad NSO boots in 1:20.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make... I like blue better than red, but what difference does it make? I mean, you plan to sail for a trip and switch on the plotter/radar. By the time you leave it is ready, no matter how long it takes to boot. Same for radar; it takes a magnetron a couple of minutes but only once, after which it is standby and ready for immediate use.

Only when you completely switch the unit off after each use, it would make a difference, but only small boats without enough power generation do that as far as I see... and they often don't have this level of gear anyway.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:38   #69
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
There were 2 key reasons for me to go for navnet3d:

1. The radar.
2. The support for C-Map charts.

Do I like the chart plotting functions? Well, not as much as what MaxSea TimeZero Explorer gives me but much better than the Raytheon plotter I had before. I might end up using MaxSea all the time as radar support is also awesome and I get it all on iPad using SplashTop.
I understand -- being locked into Navionics charts was the biggest disadvantage I saw to the Simrad plotters, and I almost didn't do it just because of that. I had been using Navionics charts on an IPad and CMap on my old Raymarine plotter, and the CMap charts were worlds better.

At the time I had no idea that Simrad was working on CMap compatibility as well -- that was a very pleasant surprise -- and unexpected bonus.

Also -- I was using the Navionics Gold charts on the IPad; I bought a Navionics Platinum + card for the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands. I don't quite understand why, but it seems to be much better than the cartography I was using on the IPad. I'm planning to use it for a while to see whether I want to change to CMap or not. So far I am pleased. It has real time tidal streams, which is very useful over here, and you can show land as a Google Earth-type photo, which I am finding very useful, too. The bathymetry seems to be much better than the IPad Navionics charts -- my main complaint about them, and the main thing I liked about CMap. So far seems more or less comparable to the CMap, but the jury is still out.

Probably one or the other publisher will have better charts for this or that region. But like you, I am biased in favor of CMaps, which has usually seemed better to me than Garmin or Navionics, especially the bathymetry.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:42   #70
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make... I like blue better than red, but what difference does it make? I mean, you plan to sail for a trip and switch on the plotter/radar. By the time you leave it is ready, no matter how long it takes to boot. Same for radar; it takes a magnetron a couple of minutes but only once, after which it is standby and ready for immediate use.

Only when you completely switch the unit off after each use, it would make a difference, but only small boats without enough power generation do that as far as I see... and they often don't have this level of gear anyway.
Power savings of continuous wave radar seems to be quite small numbers -- doesn't seem like a significant advantage, unless you are on a tremendously tight power budget.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:22   #71
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I was presuming that the chart plotters were already on, so it's just startup time of the radar. If the pulse is already warmed up and on standby then I agree it's "startup" time is the same (I think) as 4G.

But you bring up another interesting point which is the startup time of the chart plotters. That's one of the things on my list of don't like's for NN3D. The plotters take a very long time to boot up. I haven't timed it, but I'd estimate it at 4-5 minutes. The Simrad NSO boots in 1:20.
Our NN3D takes 1:58 (just measured it). It was much faster than I thought because waiting for it to boot seems like forever. Maybe it takes longer depending on which/how many charts it needs to load?

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Old 12-05-2013, 12:29   #72
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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These are some of the complementary features I'm talking about. In theory:

- 4G has better close range resolution

.
Do you think it will be better resolution than your 6' open array? You are very fortunate to be able to mount that large unit. I understand you wanting a backup, but I think that one large array will provide all you want and need.

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Old 12-05-2013, 14:22   #73
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Re: Simrad Radar & Plotters

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make... I like blue better than red, but what difference does it make? I mean, you plan to sail for a trip and switch on the plotter/radar. By the time you leave it is ready, no matter how long it takes to boot. Same for radar; it takes a magnetron a couple of minutes but only once, after which it is standby and ready for immediate use.

Only when you completely switch the unit off after each use, it would make a difference, but only small boats without enough power generation do that as far as I see... and they often don't have this level of gear anyway.
I'm agreeing with you in the first part of my comment, then taking things off on a totally different tangent about the boot up time of some plotters.
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