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Old 01-03-2013, 17:29   #1
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Thinking that having flares as a required piece is obsolete. Pretty sure this reg has not been updated in a long while.
Is it okay that we mandate a means to call for help using gunpowder when better tools are available? Does mandating anything have real value?
I like to think I made appropriate choices over the years. When children joined my life I bought a raft. I like ais and dsc. With a Epirb and a slew of dated and out of date flares and Wasp spray I'm pretty safe.
Reduced laws with clear intent could be updated.
Please keep the conversation respectful.
My suggestion is that government has become the safety net without qualification.
Too many laws.
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Old 01-03-2013, 17:34   #2
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The big advantage of flares are


(A) you have an alert mechanism that doesn't rely on electronics

(b) its a very effective close in alerting mechanism

(C) helicopters like them for ground wind indications


They remain very useful items,

Mandatory carriage laws are useful in ensuring compliance.

As for useless laws, the statute books are full of them , that's not the discussion for CF
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Old 01-03-2013, 17:36   #3
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pirate Re: Required

+A1..
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Old 01-03-2013, 17:43   #4
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Re: Required

I certainly would like "up to date" requirements and regulations, but I'm not aware of what is new that would replace the function of a flare. What's the update option?
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Old 01-03-2013, 17:48   #5
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Re: Required

Sbray

Are you suggesting government not regulate what safety equipment you carry or are you suggesting that an EPIRP and other electronic equipment somehow replaces flares?
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Old 01-03-2013, 18:06   #6
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Sbray

Are you suggesting government not regulate what safety equipment you carry or are you suggesting that an EPIRP and other electronic equipment somehow replaces flares?
I'm checking myself in regard to my opinion of government saving me. I don t think government mandates have effected my choice to carry flares . Without flares i have excellent safety gear. I have equipment that is more effective then equipment when the regulation was written.
We're I to be fined for having out of date flares seems stupid. I have redundant other means and really my old 2005 12 mm flares still fire.
Some if these rules just don't make sense. They are nothing more then away for someone else to think they have authority.
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Old 01-03-2013, 18:08   #7
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I certainly would like "up to date" requirements and regulations, but I'm not aware of what is new that would replace the function of a flare. What's the update option?
Maybe not required but a gos equipped Epirb and a dsc with gos radio seems much more efficient.
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Old 01-03-2013, 18:30   #8
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The big advantage of flares are

(A) you have an alert mechanism that doesn't rely on electronics

(b) its a very effective close in alerting mechanism

(C) helicopters like them for ground wind indications

They remain very useful items,

Mandatory carriage laws are useful in ensuring compliance.

As for useless laws, the statute books are full of them , that's not the discussion for CF
Curious how many lives are saved by flares? How many rescue efforts are deployed because of flares? Given the costs and effectiveness the FCC could mandate gos and dsc features in all VHF radios and the user cost would could be absorbed by the dusting of required overpriced flares.
I don't think that CF won't allow a civil discussion about outdated laws in context of cruising. It will not allow personnel attacks or deliberate divisive posting. I think I addressed that we can discuss this without getting loud or insulting.
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Old 01-03-2013, 18:38   #9
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Re: Required

Here we go!!!

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Old 01-03-2013, 18:50   #10
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Re: Required

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
Curious how many lives are saved by flares? How many rescue efforts are deployed because of flares? Given the costs and effectiveness the FCC could mandate gos and dsc features in all VHF radios and the user cost would could be absorbed by the dusting of required overpriced flares.
I don't think that CF won't allow a civil discussion about outdated laws in context of cruising. It will not allow personnel attacks or deliberate divisive posting. I think I addressed that we can discuss this without getting loud or insulting.
First I thought you first post was for fun but now I see perhaps not.

So safety at sea is a complex business and no one size fits all and all methods have failure points so there needs needs to be different methods available for different situations. Rules are (in part) designed to ensure this occurs even if some disagree on the necessity of them.

VHF (&DSC) and flares are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Radio is designed for distant communication by electronics and by ear.
Flares for close one way communication and by eye.

Two different animals; both can fail; both can be effective.

Rescues are still being performed in our part of the world by flare sightings!

Plus what Dave (goboatingnow) already said +1
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:08   #11
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First I thought you first post was for fun but now I see perhaps not.

So safety at sea is a complex business and no one size fits all and all methods have failure points so there needs needs to be different methods available for different situations. Rules are (in part) designed to ensure this occurs even if some disagree on the necessity of them.

VHF (&DSC) and flares are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Radio is designed for distant communication by electronics and by ear.
Flares for close one way communication and by eye.

Two different animals; both can fail; both can be effective.

Rescues are still being performed in our part of the world by flare sightings!

Plus what Dave (goboatingnow) already said +1
In fun. Just a guess that flares could be made and verified for a longer time period. Most false sar searches are VHF initiated. Government requirements are outdated and could be changed to save all our costs.
In fun I think it's worth challenging what we are doing and why. The results and who benefits.
As I said I have dated flares.
If you were to mandate 3 pieces of equipment what would you choose?
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:09   #12
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Re: Required

I lean in the direction of not being "required" to do things, but then I see a fair number of people do stupid things and expect my tax dollars to pull their butts from the fire. I think we end up needing at least some requirements if we are also "expecting" someone else to come save us. And DSC/EPIRB/etc. all indicate a plan to have someone else come assist.

As for flares, all the modern electronics in the world won't do much for you in many of the places that people like to cruise. Sure you can alert the SAR team in the US or Europe or Australia, but how are they going to get the message to that village in shore of you that doesn't even have electricity? Meanwhile, you fire off a flare and they pretty much get the message immediately, someone is stuck on their reef. And I'd rather have the locals, who know the reef better than the back of their hand helping me out, rather than some teenager in Colorado. (BTDT)

So, would I carry them? Yes, regardless of regulation, I don't think they are outdated, not everyone in the world has DSC/AIS/etc. Should they be required? I hate "requirements", so my personal opinion is no, but I can understand why some people might want to make it so.
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:18   #13
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Re: Required

I used to fly Navy helicopters and have done rescue work. I can see a flare from a longgggg ways away. They are the BEST rescue tool you have. Electronics aren't foolproof, and in the "last leg" of rescue they aren't the most useful tool...my eyes are outside the aircraft looking for you.

To visually spot a boat (or person) from the air even with a gps location is often very difficult.

I agree they're expensive. If people could 'opt out' of if they were optional, people wouldn't carry them, and rescuers would likely not see some targets at night if they didn't have flares...even with a gps location. Nanny state debate, meh...I want to be found, and I want to find anyone who wants to be found.

1. Carry flares.
2. Tie glow sticks on your PFDs! At night, a rescuer on night vision goggles can see a glow stick from a long ways. Even better, spin one on a string above your head like a propeller....can be seen very easily.
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:24   #14
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Re: Required

Don't carry them and see if they can find you when your batteries crap out. Don't carry them when you are on inland lakes. You can always trot out that 800.00 EPRIB. Thank you go boating now for your common sense answer. I hate gov't regulation, but this is one I can easily live with. Even though I carry one I will just lose my mind if EPIRB or spot locators become required equipment. Flare requirement? Can't even believe we are having this discussion.Had some other pithy observations that I deleted. I'll just leave it as this. Flares are tried and true not expensive or technical pieces of safety gear that any one can use to get out of a tight spot. Use the expired ones on the beach on the fourth of July. The kids will love it.
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:42   #15
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Re: Required

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
In fun. Just a guess that flares could be made and verified for a longer time period. Most false sar searches are VHF initiated. Government requirements are outdated and could be changed to save all our costs.
In fun I think it's worth challenging what we are doing and why. The results and who benefits.
As I said I have dated flares.
If you were to mandate 3 pieces of equipment what would you choose?
Tough one as I am personally against mandates in general but if I had to...
How about (in fun):
1. Common Sense
2. Practical Training Common Sense
3. Intelligence Common Sense

What do I carry (in no special order):
Flares
EPIRB
Radio (VHF /SSB)

But the only time I called for help was my first day out ever sailing (a lifetime back) when the steering failed (cable broke) a few miles from the habour entrance. Dropped the sails, popped the anchor over and was about to start thinking what to do next when the next boat to go pass was the local coastguard. Without further ado, I stood on deck and waved my arms, they came across and towed me in. They refused any payment so I dropped off a carton of beer the next day. This was 30 years back.

The only time I have responded to a vessel in distress was due to them holding up a orange V flag. It was a outboard motor boat and they were out of coastal radio range, no EPRIB, no flares and broken motor. I spotted the flag though binoulcars only (I must be nosey ) and sailed over to investigate. Towed them into radio range and hung about until they "officially" rescued. They usually carried an auxiliary but had just bought a new motor and had traded both the old motors - the new failed first day out

Based on that evidence, get some arms and a flag
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