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Old 02-03-2010, 03:38   #1
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Raymarine E Series Network

I have had a package of new Raymarine electronics installed. I have a E120 display at the nav station and a E80 at the helm, The E120 is the data master unit. If the E120 is not operational, the E80 does not receive GPS or radar data. Also, if the E120 is off, my VHF and HF radio do not receive GPS data (which is an issue regarding DSC) I have discussed this issue with Raymarine Technical help and they have confirmed that the E120 must be operational for the E80 to function. They have also suggested that I install another GPS receiver, if I want the VHF and HF radios to have a GPS feed that is not contingent on the E120 being operational.
I am new to boat electronics and am uncertain whether the information I have been provided is correct, or if there are alternative solutions, so that I have the redundancy in the system, that I thought I was getting. Any comments?
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:00   #2
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Raymarine are correct from their perspective, installing another RAYSTAR125 antenna would also providew redundancy but, just adding the antenna to the other unit will not necessarily give you NMEA data to your DSC radio, this will require additional wiring to get the signal from the E80 to the radio.

I would look into an ActiSense Interface, see Overview, and share the data between all your units, the RAYSTAR125 antenna can be configured for SeaTalk or NMEA0183 output to make this possible or another way would be to use a Raymarine E85001 converter Raymarine Marine Electronics - PC/NMEA/SeaTalk Interface Box to change the data from SeaTalk to NMEA0183 or even RS232 serial information so that the NMEA data can be used for a laptop computer running navigation software.
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Old 02-03-2010, 06:21   #3
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rasa,
That is the system. And, you have the added amp draw of the E120 when you only want the E80. You can reverse the master to the E180 with some wiring but the big issue there is likely the radome cable, which must be led to whichever unit is set to master. I went through this exercise of switching and it would have been nice to have an "A/B" switch for the radome cable, however I am not aware of one.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:26   #4
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Add a Raystar 125 and wire it as a NMEA antenna. The 125 comes with directions to wire it as a Seatalk or NMEA antenna.
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Old 02-03-2010, 13:40   #5
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Thanks for the info. I thought that I understood the system I was buying and what it could do, but it has turned out to not be so. I will install a second GPS receiver to feed the radios and have a switched feed to the E80, as Raymarine advise against having two GPS inputs in a network.
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Old 02-03-2010, 18:11   #6
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Raymarine Sea-Talk Bus Powering / Wiring is the key...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rasa View Post
I have had a package of new Raymarine electronics installed. I have a E120 display at the nav station and a E80 at the helm, The E120 is the data master unit. If the E120 is not operational, the E80 does not receive GPS or radar data.
Also, if the E120 is off, my VHF and HF radio do not receive GPS data (which is an issue regarding DSC)
Rasa,
Well, I have an E-80 at the Nav Station and an E-120 in the cockpit.....
(see photos here Nav Station and here E120/Cockpit )
And, I've got many many years of electronics experience.....
So, perhaps I can be of help....

First off, forgive my bluntness, but I don't want to sacrifice comprehension for sublety....


1) IF the system was installed correctly (and if I recall accurately is actually described in the respected installation instructions), with the Raymarine Sea Talk data wiring bus powered separately than from either E-80 or E-120, but still having BOTH E-80 and E-120 connected to the Sea Talk data bus (yellow and shield wires only), then you SHOULD have all GPS data on both the E-80 and the E-120, no matter which one you power up....(this means having a separate breaker for the Raystar GPS 125, and whatever else you wish to power from the main Sea Talk data bus, such as some ST-60+ instruments, etc...)
You should also have all other Sea Talk data, such as depth, speed, wind, temp, voltage, etc. if your vessel is equipped with other Raymarine Sea Talk units, and also heading and autopilot data if you have a Raymarine heading sensor and/or autopilot installed as well (which should also be powered separately, and have only the yellow and shield of the main Sea Talk bus connected to the autopilot).....


I'm not sure why this was not apparently done in your install......but fear not, since this installation oversight is common, and NOT difficult nor expensive to rectify....
(as for why you couldn't get this info from Raymarine....that a whole 'nother discussion...)



2) Radar data is a whole 'nother story.....
In effect, Raymarine didn't have a fix for this when I installed my new electronics about 3 years ago......and, I've not looked into it since, but I "thought" that with their new digital HD radomes they would have a "splitter" or "switch" that could handle this????

Please verify what radome you have (bar coded tag with model # and S/N) and e-mail Raymarine on this query specifically.....
Do NOT mention the GPS data, etc.....only whether there is a switch or splitter that would allow either E-series display to power the radome (as long as you run the required cabling to both the E-80 and E-120).....



3) As for installing another GPS to provide position data to your radios...that's actually a GREAT idea.....(and that's what I did, years ago....see photos of my Nav Station... Nav Station)
But, there's NO need to make it a Raystar 125......Garmin is the choice of most for this application.....
I use a Garmin GPS 76, mounted at the Nav Station, and powered from the VHF radio breaker (with internal battery back-up), and it's been working great for 6 years, 15,000+ miles offshore, including mulitple Atlantic crossiungs, etc....
It'll set you back about $150, including the data/power cable and mount.....

There are multiple reasons to do it this way....not the least of which is independent / redundant GPS positioning data, as well as most of use carry mulitple handheld GPS units any way (I carry 3 Garmin GPS 76's and 2 Raystar GPS 125's), why not put one of them to use....



I hope this helps.....

John
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:19   #7
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Thanks John, for the very useful information. I appreciate your time and effort and the bluntness. I am trying hard to understand what my system is capable of, and its limitations. I have looked at the installation manual and it has a little information regarding networking of E- series displays. For a "typical two node system incorporating two displays" it shows the two displays connected via SeaTalk High Speed, with a Crossover coupler.This is basically a "plug and play" system of connection. This is how I understand that my system is connected. The only reference I can see to the method of connecting via SeaTalk, is the following sentence:"If you connect the master display to all other displays in the system via SeaTalk or SeaTalk2, you will negate the need to unplug and reconnect cabling if the master becomes unavailable." I will follow this up now, armed with all this information.
Regarding the radar: I know this is a lost cause, unless as you say, the radar cable is run to both displays with a changeover switch. I will check this out, but I dont think there is anything new in this issue.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:56   #8
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I had just this setup on my bene 393 , with two E 80's. Since you need to share charts and radar then you need a seatalk HS ( essentially ethernet) between the two devices. This makes one a master and one a slave. The radar has to be conncted to a mater unit in order to serve the radar data out over the sea talk HS. From my recollection the Nmea and seatalk connections to the slave go dead when slave mode is selected. All data feeds have to come through the master. This is too avoid info clashes. ( ie two gps feeds etc). In my case we just accepted that both units had to be on. I dont know if your radio is raymarine and hence seatalk, but I suspect that you are feeding it from the NMEA output from the E120. My suggestion is to get a nmea 0183 output GPS and feed the AIS, HF and VHF radios from that. Thats the cheapest and simplest, leave the raystar for the E series.

Remember to disconnect the nmea feed from the E120 to the radios etc. You cant have two GPS inputs into a Raymarine system.

As to the radar switcher, no joy , unfortunately Rays radar still rely on significant processing in the E series, hence their is a fairly large no of conections to switch. Secondly you would have to reprogram, the master slave setup in each E unit each time you switch and also you would lose the GPS input as it would be now going into the wrong E unit. The Basic fact is that Raymarine never designed the system so that you could switch part if on and part off.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:57   #9
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Not too complicated, but a bit confusing to explain on-line....

There's a good bit of mis-information floating around, unfortunately some of propagated via Raymarine......
And, some of it caused by simple mis-uinderstanding of terminology....


1) I'm not suggesting having two GPS units connected to the displays, rather just wiring the Sea Talk data bus correctly.....
There is NO bad effect here at all....
No data collisions, No confusion, nothing bad will happen....

2) Also, for clarification, the SeaTalk HS (ethernet-type connection) is already connected, and is not what I was refering to...

3) On my set-up (wired as I described earlier), turning off the "master" display will of course not allow whatever chart chip is plugged-in to it, to be used by the "slave" (as well as loss of radar data), but all GPS data, and all other Sea Talk data (heading, wind, speed, depth, pilot, etc.) is available.....
This data is available because I have the Sea Talk data bus connected to both displays....

But, please note that this Sea Talk data bus is just that, a Sea Talk data bus......it is not simply another connection between the two displays....
This Sea Talk data bus is typically (not not always) started with the GPS 125, and continues with other Sea Talk units on board....and is powered by its own breaker, and is independent from the E-series displays....



Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I had just this setup on my bene 393 , with two E 80's. Since you need to share charts and radar then you need a seatalk HS ( essentially ethernet) between the two devices. This makes one a master and one a slave. The radar has to be conncted to a mater unit in order to serve the radar data out over the sea talk HS.
This is correct....


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
From my recollection the Nmea and seatalk connections to the slave go dead when slave mode is selected. All data feeds have to come through the master. This is too avoid info clashes. ( ie two gps feeds etc).
This is incorrect......but, it is unfortunate that many owners/users are unaware since their Raymarine dealers/installers are woefully uninformed and illequipped to really grasp this point.....
But, if you follow Raymarine's instructions for wiring the Sea Talk data bus correctly, you'll find the Sea Talk data available on either display, no matter which one is powered up....this is how my set-up works, and it works very well....
(Although, for some this may be a moot point, since they many need the charting data from their master unit, on their slave unit, and not wishing to move the chart chip back and forth....or they may be navigating areas where they need radar data on the slave unit all the time.....which in both of these cases, the master unit would need to be powered up...)



Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As to the radar switcher, no joy , unfortunately Rays radar still rely on significant processing in the E series, hence their is a fairly large no of conections to switch. Secondly you would have to reprogram, the master slave setup in each E unit each time you switch
This is unfortunate, I had assumed that when using the new (2009) "Digital" / "HD" radomes and newer software, this would be possible.....
However, I still recommend a direct query to Raymarine on this specific issue, using the new digital radomes.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
....and also you would lose the GPS input as it would be now going into the wrong E unit.The Basic fact is that Raymarine never designed the system so that you could switch part if on and part off.
This is not correct, as long as the Sea Talk data bus is wired correctly, you can actually power-up part of the system without probelms....but, as I wrote above may be a moot point for most, since it may be the radar data (or chart data) that you wish to have on the slave unit, and therefore you'll need to power up the unit which has the radar connection and/or the charting chip you desire.....


This isn't too complicated, but unfortunately isn't the easiest thing to explain on-line....

But, I doi hope this helps....

John
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:58   #10
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Heres the section from the manual


• One display will act as the master for SeaTalk, NMEA 0183 and system datav
including waypoints, routes and tracks. All SeaTalk/SeaTalk2 connections should be made to this master. (my bold)

• If you connect the instrumentations master display (i.e. speed master) to all other displays in the system via SeaTalk or SeaTalk2, you will negate the need to unplug and reconnect cabling if the master becomes unavailable.
The bridging of data from SeaTalk/SeaTalk2 only occurs at the master. You cannot therefore have additional networks connected to
additional E-Series Displays.

You can however connect multiple NMEA inputs.


Now in my case,. this case 5 years ago near the introduction of teh E series, we found that the nmea ouputs didnt work on the slave either. This seems to have changed ( or maybe it hasnt, it suggests you can connect inputs not outputs).

What the OP is trying to do, is differnt to what you are suggesting, In your case I agree that powering up the seatalk bus independantly of the E series then the seatalk data from other seatalk devices would be available.

The OPs problem is bridging, Hes running a nmea feed from his master to the vhf etc. ( hes has to be as thats all thats allowed, as otherwise the GPS seatalk data would not bridge accross to the nmea output).

When he turns off his master, the bridging disappears, as does the fix ( unless as you mentioned both devices are connected via seatalk, even though Raymarine do not support this, as they specifically say that they do not allow it when both devices are powered up, ie the slave can not be on a seatalk network with the master).

Since the GPS bridging to nmea is only taking place in the master, the only way around the problem is to feed a seperate nmea gps feed into radio,


PS: I stand corrcted re the radar, the new digital radars are conncted via seatalk HS, and there is a seatalk HS switch that can redirected the radar to the slave. ( its even diagramed in the installation manual).


what I said was right, in my system the slave cannot bridge, nor output on the seatalk or nmea networks. what the raymarine tech in the UK said was that they turn off driving thoses ouputs to avoid duplicate data types, which seatalk and nmea cant handle. IT would seem that perhaps seatalk inputs remain on as perhaps does nmea inputs. but agin Raymarine do not support "additonal networks on slave displays"

Just thinking about the conversation, with thy raymarine tech at the time, I think he mentioned that theres no seatalk output from the slave, only input. ie you couldnt get autopilot data sent from the slave to an autopilot, unless you turned off slave mode. This explains why you method works.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:18   #11
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One thing a lot of people don't realize is that while SeaTalk wiring has a power lead, there is no requirement to hook this up between devices - though obviously everything needs to gets it's power from somewhere. Devices that have their own power leads simply don't need the power lead connected, unless you want turning that device ON to power up other devices on the bus.

I have ST wind, depth, and multi instruments, a course computer, and a C70 MFD. All of these are wired into the same SeaTalk bus, but the power wire is only connected between the 3 ST instruments - I didn't wire the power lead at all to the course computer or the C70. All devices can share data when powered up, but nothing powers up anything else (again except for the 3 ST instruments which do).

The only exception to this is the Autopilot head unit, which is on a dedicated SeaTalk bus to the course computer. Powering up the computer powers up the head unit. This is intentionally on an isolated bus - the course computer has two SeaTalk connections for just this reason.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:04   #12
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Raymarine E-series / Sea-Talk Bus / etc.

Rasa,
Well, I think we've collectively found your solution....

1) First, I think we are all in agreement that having a separate, dedicated GPS feeding position data to your radios is the way to go.....
It will be no more expensive that a Sea Talk to NMEA converter, and provide you with redundancy of GPS positioning....
This will get your position data to your radios, whether anything else on board is powered on / operational...



2) Secondly, power your Raystar GPS 125, and any other Sea Talk units (NOT the E-Series, nor autopilot) on a separate breaker, thereby making sure you always have GPS data available on the Sea Talk bus, no matter whether you have any chartplotter/display powered up at all....(connect only the yellow and shield Sea Talk bus wires, don't connect the red wire of the Sea Talk bus to either E-series unit)

Also, make sure that you autopilot (if you have one installed) is powered by its own breaker, and aside from its own control heads, make sure that the Sea Talk bus is also connected with only the yellow and shield....

This will allow either E-series display to show all Sea Talk data (GPS, etc.) no matter which one is powered up....



3) Verify that you have the new digital radome scanner, and that you have the most current software versions, and then contact Raymarine for details on the part that you need (Sea Talk HS Switch) and procedure to install and configure your set-up......

This should allow you to use/power the radar from either E-series display....verify with Raymarine and/or your own manuals.....

If, like me, you have the slightly older (2007) radome scanner, you will NOT be able to use the radar from the "slave" display unless the master unit is also powered up....



I think that sums everything up....

John
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Old 28-03-2010, 05:57   #13
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Well, a little time has past, but I want to let all interested people know that I followed Johns advice and used a very good marine electrician called Jason Smith at Lake Macquarie to reconfigure my Raymarine wiring. The GPS was put on a separate circuit with the instruments and connects to both Chartplotters with only the yellow and shield sea talk wires. And Lo and behold, I now have GPS going to the chartplotter at the helm, even if the Chartplotter at the nav station, is switched off. I now have redundancy in the system, in that, if the chartplotter(master) at the nav station goes down, I can take the chart card and place it in the chatplotter at the helm and I still have a functioning chartplotter. I looked into the radar issue, and unfortunately the radar model I have is the last model before radar can be distributed on SeaTalk HS.
Jason Smith suggested that if I really want radar at the helm, in the case of the nav station chartplotter going down, the best solution would be to run a radar extension cable from the nav station chartplotter to the helm chartplotter, and then it would be a matter of connecting the radar cable to the extension to get radar direct to the helm chartplotter.
Many thanks to all who contributed with suggestions, and especially to John, who had the answer to my problem.
Rasa
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