Radar or Not ?

[zeehag]

this thread is a scream.
no one uses eyeballs anymore, as everyone is staring at some screen below decks. the container in your way isnt gonna show upon radar nor on ais. neither is that house floating from japan. or whatever junk is floating in your way. the shrimper or fisher will be on radar. you can see him with eyes as he is lit up like a christmas tree. eyeballs will save you.
before deciding to spend money on ais-- read your gps book--you may just have it built into your gps system. or into your vhf.... learn nmea stuff and hook it up. then go buy a 1200 dollar radar unit. you willbe fine, as long as you look with eyes where you are going as well as all around your horizon.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Just imagine less then 20% of the actual boats on the water are reporting with AIS, and you're crossing the english channel in fog without a radar.

where did you get that number from.

Strangely people have been sailing here for many centuries without radar and not all of them died

Even more strange, is that is past centuries, nay even 50 years ago, ships were not doing upto 40 knots at sea with the majority of big freighters doing 20 knots. Nor was the shipping density as great. ( nor in fact were there hardly any leisure sailors about either).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DotDun

IMO, this is THE major problem with AIS......believing that a collision with a vessel under 300T is nothing "to worry about"! Hence, AIS "helps enormously".

It's like going to a nuclear war carrying only a machete.

I wonder what percentage of on-water collisions involve a vessel over 300T? I'll bet far less than 1%.

Have anyone of you doubters actually sailed in large ship, high density areas. Really have you. AIS does help. There is no argument that says if you can aford its low cost then you should have it. It is an enormous contribution towards vessel safety.

It does not remove the obligations tp

* Keep a lookout
* NOT be a dumbass.

As to radar. good radar is expensive, its a different piece of kit entirely

In my estimation Id put my equipment priority list as follows

Depth & Speed
VHF
AIS
Wind ( I can judge wind )
Plotter
Autopilot
Radar

Given that AIS transceivers are now nearly as cheap as a good elctronic wind instrument, thats what Id go for.

People running down AIS by comparing it to radar are loosing the plot.

Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

People running down AIS by comparing it to radar are loosing the plot.

Hopefully the OP has gone sailing to see for himself what electronic gizmos suit his boat in his cruising grounds.

Personally, I want one of everything.

But that ain't going to happen


Barnie's right, popcorn thread.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In my estimation Id put my equipment priority list as follows

Depth & Speed
VHF
AIS
Wind ( I can judge wind )
Plotter
Autopilot
Radar

Would this list change if there was a chance of night passages?

If the weather forecast was 50% chance of foul weather?

If there was a chance of weather and/or nightfall and you were in the Gulf of Mexico with unlit oil rigs?

I have no doubt about the usefulness of AIS, it's a great tool, but it's less useful in the above conditions.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Would this list change if there was a chance of night passages?

If the weather forecast was 50% chance of foul weather?

If there was a chance of weather and/or nightfall and you were in the Gulf of Mexico with unlit oil rigs?

I have no doubt about the usefulness of AIS, it's a great tool, but it's less useful in the above conditions.

why would the list change. ( AIS, rumour has it works in the dark and in bad weather) Its in order of money availability, really I I very very tight I might swop the chartplotter for a simple GPS, and use the spare money towards an autopilot.

INterestingly , looking on Marine tarffic, a lot of oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico have AIS transceivers.....!!!!!!

As do the rigs and loading points in the North sea too. But then lets not mention any of this as it doesnt help with your arguments.

Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by DotDun

If there was a chance of weather and/or nightfall and you were in the Gulf of Mexico with unlit oil rigs?

Does such a thing exist?? Certainly in the North sea they transmit AIS as well as being full of lights, are they a bit of a risk down there?

[zeehag]

off texas and in gulf, yes there are unlit rigs and the ais on them is doubtful. radar s a better option. some gps units have ais. look in your owners manual(novel idea) to see if yours does or not..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zeehag

this thread is a scream.
no one uses eyeballs anymore, as everyone is staring at some screen below decks. the container in your way isnt gonna show upon radar nor on ais. neither is that house floating from japan. or whatever junk is floating in your way. the shrimper or fisher will be on radar. you can see him with eyes as he is lit up like a christmas tree. eyeballs will save you.
before deciding to spend money on ais-- read your gps book--you may just have it built into your gps system. or into your vhf.... learn nmea stuff and hook it up. then go buy a 1200 dollar radar unit. you willbe fine, as long as you look with eyes where you are going as well as all around your horizon.

Zeehag, sweety Whatever the arguments bout AIS/RADAR, nobody is "looking out the window" any less, nor is anyone reccomending that they dont look out the window. Pleeze, taking these arguments and extrapolating them to extremes, is just a debating tactic, and one that most people see through.

Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by zeehag

off texas and in gulf, yes there are unlit rigs and the ais on them is doubtful. radar s a better option. some gps units have ais. look in your owners manual(novel idea) to see if yours does or not..

That's a bit scarey. You mean they have no lights at all? Derelect?

[zeehag]

in use and derelict sans lights--radar is good for finding these. look in the gps owners manual--most have ais in them just need the hookup with nmea whatsis.....so only "need" is to get radar, but keep eyes off screeens and on your horizons!!!! i have radar--we used it 3 times from sd to mazatlan.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by conachair

Does such a thing exist?? Certainly in the North sea they transmit AIS as well as being full of lights, are they a bit of a risk down there?

As zee stated, the northern gulf is peppered with rigs. Apparently, once abandoned, they are allowed a considerable amount of time to remove them.

Take a read:

Houston - Bahamas sail - World Cruising and Sailing Forums

Corpus Christi to Tampa

In my area, take a look at these:

08/05/2001 Gulf Of Mexico - L-Tower Topside Video - YouTube

Drop on Permit, Kings & Cobia

I was caught in a night time non-forecasted weather event with 50kt winds within 1 nm of one of these towers. Didn't matter if it was lit, I couldn't see past the bow of the boat due to the rain. As I was keeping the nose of the boat pointed into the wind (the AP was useless at this point), the admiral was glued to the radar screen to make sure I didn't get close to the tower. The 4-6 footers turned into 8-12' within ~20 minutes, the tower showed up about every 4th radar sweep. 2 hours later, we turned back on track.

Also, after Hurricane Wilma, it took up to a year to repair the lights on these towers. I passed them more than once during that time at night.

At least these towers are on the chart with little chance of moving in a storm, unlike the oil rigs.

[LoveMyWoodie]

Radar or not?

When you ride your bicycle ...do you wear a helmet?

I only wear a helmet because the law says so.

I would only have a radar if i could afford it .

But if I fell off my bike I would like to be wearing a helmet.

Just like I would like to have a radar that told me i was going to hit something.

Radar is not a matter of- if -you should have one, but can you afford to have one? and if you can- why would you not have one?

and can you not afford not to have one... when you need one?

otherwise ,one day you may understand how a black cat feels...

looking for a something you don't know that you cant see...

in a very dark room...

till you hear a bump in the night!


then again I would never wear a parachute in a plane or have a life raft on a boat either...

because i can't see jumping out of a plane that's still flying or a boat that's still floatin

id rather go down with the ship!

[Sailor g]

Zeehag, sweety Whatever the arguments bout AIS/RADAR, nobody is "looking out the window" any less, nor is anyone reccomending that they dont look out the window. Pleeze, taking these arguments and extrapolating them to extremes, is just a debating tactic, and one that most people see through.

Dave[/QUOTE]

I don't see it as a debating tactic OR an extrapolation-just a different point of view saying that eyes & binocular can be used instead of buying these extras.

I agree that you can see most large lit vessels in time to change course. I like AIS because it lets me vector & gives me extra time to decide best course & vessels like Baja Ferry (it has AIS but is not super lit like cruise ships). We also have radar which is great for fog or coming in a new place. I wouldn't travel without radar if going long distances or in areas with bad or foggy weather or in commercial shipping areas. And if possible I would have AIS-even just receiver which is cheaper. I keep the lookout (not trusting them to lookout for me) so know if something is coming my way.

But it is not a danger without AIS. Most unlit fishing boats or smaller boats can be seen even in complete darkness (eyes adjusted) in time to move. It keeps you looking for other floating items as well- or whales as I mentioned earlier.

[s/v Jedi]

Let me start with saying that I actually sailed through the busy traffic lanes of the North Sea / English Channel with just a Garmin 12XL hand GPS (still have it :-). So that would support the statements that eyeballs can replace AIS receivers (never transponders though).

However, this statement wouldn't be complete without adding that we were very worried about all those ships and looking out for them took more than 50% of our time and thus a lot of joy away from these trips. I remember LoweStoft UK to IJmuiden NL where you have to pass 3 (!) of those traffic lanes in 24 hours plus all the ships that go outside of them.

Radar, and for the most part AIS, changes all that dramatically.

ciao!
Nick.