Radar or Not ?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Third, radar is not just to check targets that don't send AIS updates... It is THE tool to check ALL targets.

Not anymore it isn't, not ALL TARGETS...

Just to muddy the waters a bit more...

http://ezinearticles.com/?Virtual-AIS&id=1947322

A Virtual Buoy is essentially an AIS message sent by the VTS or Port Authorities to ships in the port area, giving the details of navigational buoys that are not physically present. Ships that are fitted with an AIS transponder can use this information to safely navigate through narrow channels and avoid obstructions. This sort of a system is extremely cost-effective because the expenses involved with installing and maintaining a physical buoy are negated. It is also beneficial to navigation because the buoy will show up on AIS-linked radar screens irrespective of the visibility or weather conditions. A very good example of a successful system of Virtual Buoyage is in the Hooghly River in India. The banks of the Hooghly keep changing due to silting. This makes the makes the maintenance of buoys a difficult proposition as the buoys have to be moved ever so often to mark the new position of the banks. This obstacle has been circumvented by using a system of Virtual Buoys to mark the channel.

Get both, I find I use AIS almost all of the time instead of radar (with 2 eyes ondeck ) but kiss the radar in humble gratitude when the fog comes down...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by conachair

Not anymore it isn't, not ALL TARGETS...

Yes, I have seen this in use on the North Sea too, but that was just for temporary things like missing buoys or a ship that has just run aground etc. In the case of that ship, others still reported collisions with it which turned out to be excuses to pump their bilges into the sea.

I agree that AIS is quickly becoming a must have device and I have been using a class A transponder since 2005.

ciao!
Nick.

[Strygaldwir]

I have Raymarine chartplotter and radar. I LOVE the combination. I have one display unit up at the helm, one at the nav station (no radar there, only charts). This lets me glance over and see where I am and what's out there without leaving the helm. I have the unit mounted on a swing arm and would not have room for another display. Integration certainly is a BIG plus for me.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by conachair

Can't agree there, AIS is a different animal from radar. For less than the cost of a shiney jacket you can have a little box drawing very little power which continually gives out very accurate and useful information.

Not a luxury at all, hard to see any argument in not having one.

Why does this always seem to get so polarised, you are allowed both, and the costs of an ais reciever is so low in boat terms that it seems daft not to have one.

Much of the argument for AIS before radar is a cost issue and they may have spent big bikkies on an expensive chartplotter.

Both are great but radar is indispensible particually with in ability to determine position and check charts which is extremely important where charts are not so accurate.

have both.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

It's really just a couple simple questions, with a simple answers.

Is my life and the life of those on-board worth the costs of radar?

You could hire someone to follow you around in a RIB - is your life not worth that expense?

If you answer no to the question of insurance, you most likely will answer no to the Q of radar.

Not really sure where that linkage comes from

AIS is a luxury... it's required if you don't have radar...but then again if you don't have radar, then life really has no value..so having luxury is a plus.

ROTFLMAO You must be a marketeers wet dream

Top 10 list of Nav. equip..

1. a compass, that is swung and compensated to the ship, including deviation sheet. Agree on the Compass, swung and compensated is nice but can be allowed for when navigating if the deviation is known.

2. Depth Sounder. Not sure why? use a tide table, a watch and a chart.

3. VHF radio, that's working. Sensible, but not essential unless you start sinking. Besides am not really into the inane radio chatter end of boating.

To be honest I probably won't be re-installing mine (Local RNLI seems to be wrapped up with the Woo Peddlers - they even had a wizard (dress and funny hat - the full Harry Potter ) casting spells on their boats last year - more investigation on that from me next year........) so I may be telling 'em to stick their rescue services up their ar#e - I don't like to encourage Woo, wherever it appears). No (floating) CG here so one worth calling.

Actually 1-3 can be in any order as log as they are on board, and are in working order.

4. local charts, including large charts for the questionable areas. Yeah, a chart is useful

5. you have no business on the water piloting a vessel with out the above mentioned. Lol

6. Radar - Another Bikini "safety" device........doesn't reveal as much as folk imagine........but ideal for those who beleive everything they see on a TV screen. The good news is that 99% of the time it wouldn't actually matter if the screen was showing re-runs of Oprah

7. Chart plotter - for the full Disney experiance, now in colour

8-10 are luxuries. Not sure what these are? The number of crew?

If you have a big screen, and stereo but don't have 1-5 you shouldn't be on the water. I sink every time I leave port. and have drowned 5 times

11. AIS Transponder - Yes, the modern approach - I have a problem to solve, lets pass it over to someone else and then I don't need to worry my pretty little head about it

12 AIS Reciever - Just like radar, except better where shipping is concerned (in places that give a sh#t).

lloyd

[xymotic]

Check out the video on this page: Broadband 4G

Now, it's a MFR promotional video, but the part where they are tracking a small PVC pipe is pretty damned impressive.

AIS will not do that.

rtflmao "100% of collisions happen up close"

[capecuddy]

You can add AIS reception to your chartplotter with the small incremental cost of picking a radio that has an AIS receiver like the Standard Horizon GX-2150...peanuts compared to the added sensor source. HDS-10 interfaced to the radio for GPS and radio to the HDS for AIS targets and DSC waypoints.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by capecuddy

You can add AIS reception to your chartplotter with the small incremental cost of picking a radio that has an AIS receiver like the Standard Horizon GX-2150...peanuts compared to the added sensor source. HDS-10 interfaced to the radio for GPS and radio to the HDS for AIS targets and DSC waypoints.

You can do it way cheaper than that Smart Radio SR161 AIS Receiver

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

You could hire someone to follow you around in a RIB - is your life not worth that expense?



Not really sure where that linkage comes from



ROTFLMAO You must be a marketeers wet dream

David,

I can see you're any easy one to get into arguments with. I won't play your game of Ridicule/belittlement.

So if you read my post without a preconceived position, then you will understand what I wrote.

AIS is a luxury, I stand behind that statement. If you follow my top ten list you can safely navigate without an AIS. As a matter of fact there are more people navigating without AIS then with.

Sure AIS can aid navigation but it is not required. Anyone navigating in fog with with and AIS instead of radar is a life threat to everyone on their vessel, as well as every other vessel in the vicenity.

Anyone navigating with a chart plotter, minus charts is a threat to themselves, and those on-board.

How can you argue any point.

Lloyd

[conachair]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

David,

If you follow my top ten list you can safely navigate without an AIS. As a matter of fact there are more people navigating without AIS then with.

Same with radar , chart plotters and charts for that matter.

Depending on where your particular mental picture of the boats navigating the ocean ends.


Why so negative towards AIS??

It works, it's great. It's cheap. I can't think of one argument not to have such a useful provider of info onboard.

Radar is great too but radar eats lots of power,costs lots and takes precious time to figure out the course & speed of targets.

In fog it's the big boys who are the big worry, fishing boats and the other small stuff are still stressful but not as big a stress as the big ones transmitting AIS.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Anyone navigating with a chart plotter, minus charts is a threat to themselves, and those on-board.

How can you plot charts when you don't have the charts? I hope this isn't the old "must be paper charts or you die" argument again....

I agree that AIS is not a must-have tool yet but it's close and only a matter of time before it will be. Apparently it already is needed in India if you want to see channel markers.

ciao!
Nick.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by conachair

Why so negative towards AIS??

It works, it's great. It's cheap. I can't think of one argument not to have such a useful provider of info onboard.

Radar is great too but radar eats lots of power,costs lots and takes precious time to figure out the course & speed of targets.

In fog it's the big boys who are the big worry, fishing boats and the other small stuff are still stressful but not as big a stress as the big ones transmitting AIS.

So you believe there will be a difference between a plastic boat getting T-boned by 200000T or 300T? I'm betting either one delivers a great amount of ugly!

Not negative towards AIS, it's a great technology. I'm negative on the idea that an AIS receiver is a substitute for radar. It's not! And given the restriction of choosing one or the other (the OPs original question), there's no choice, radar first! Radar delivers much more than AIS does, except vessel identification (which isn't necessary for collision avoidance).

In fact, I'll go as far to state that AIS receivers for boats should have never been built!

If you don't deploy an AIS transceiver, what's the point? The AIS system is predicated on boats transmitting data, if you only receive, no other AIS can see you! Collision avoidance is a multi-player game.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by conachair

Same with radar , chart plotters and charts for that matter.

Depending on where your particular mental picture of the boats navigating the ocean ends.


Why so negative towards AIS??

It works, it's great. It's cheap. I can't think of one argument not to have such a useful provider of info onboard.

Radar is great too but radar eats lots of power,costs lots and takes precious time to figure out the course & speed of targets.

In fog it's the big boys who are the big worry, fishing boats and the other small stuff are still stressful but not as big a stress as the big ones transmitting AIS.

First I didn't say I'm against AIS. What I stated is AIS is not a replcaement for Radar. AIS is a luxary, and it may even be worth having.

AIS is for commercial ship tracking, both by the owner of the ship, and when entering vessel traffic controlled navigation zones, much like an airport uses traffic control. It can also be used by governments or anyone else to track ship movement, and if you have a transponder then, you to can be tracked.

In fog it's the big boys who are the big worry, fishing boats and the other small stuff are still stressful but not as big a stress as the big ones transmitting AIS.

Well this is a completely false statement, a commercial vessel will most likely have 2 radars operating, with a man on watch dedicated to the radar.

The last time I was in fog, I had a 40 Searay show up as a fast moving target on my radar, I was able to take a course of action to avoid him. He past with in 20 yards of me at about 25 knots. He had no radar on-board, and would not respond to horn signals. I'm not even sure he knew I was there.

AIS did nothing in this situation, because he was not transmitting AIS. How do I know this, bc it didn't show up on my AIS receiver.

Lloyd

[conachair]

Originally Posted by DotDun

In fact, I'll go as far to state that AIS receivers for boats should have never been built!

Sorry to disagree but in IMHO that statement is completely absolutely nuts. Do what you will, I think pretty much anyone loaned a a reciever for a month would really not want to give it back after the month was up.

Ais and radar are 2 different things, why confuse the 2? Thats where the arguments come start.

As for radar, it's great. Mine is used mostly for the alarm offshore solo. Apart from that still love it dearly. It earned it's keep just once round the Atlantic in fog down the portuguese coast. For the other 5 years minus 1 day I could easily have lived without it, but would rather not. It's great but not having it won't automatically mean you die.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

The last time I was in fog, I had a 40 Searay show up as a fast moving target on my radar, I was able to take a course of action to avoid him. He past with in 20 yards of me at about 25 knots. He had no radar on-board, and would not respond to horn signals. I'm not even sure he knew I was there.

OK, where you sail get radar - sounds scarey!

My whole rant is get both!! AIS is cheap enough to do that.