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Old 14-11-2011, 12:02   #271
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I have never watched a video with more nonsense than this. "unmatched short range performance"... Ok, they continue to explain this like a conventional radar will show you targets from 80' away while the 4g will perform better from 50' away... a whopping 30' difference. Then next sentence it'm suddenly perform right up your bow which is like 0' away... You think this really is true? That you can see a dinghy that is right under your bow?

Also, they continue to explain that all collisions occur in that range right at your boat (duh!) so that is why you must have a 4g radar.

Well okay, let them have it and everybody falling for that. Us who have a bit more grey matter watch targets way out and steer clear so that we don't pass at 10' from each other. Also, when they are rig upon us, we'll use eyes.

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See, and here I thought that all collisions happen up-close deadpan, was funny as hell.

Again though, I am very impressed that they are tracking a 1' piece of plastic for 1/10 of a mile.

As to the hype versus reality, Panbo: The Marine Electronics Weblog: Navico Broadband Radar 4G, the launch demo

They CLAIM a 17 mile range in rain. What more is needed?

And yes, I do think the dinghy under the bow claim is true, I've seen almost that good a performance from the 3g version with my own eyes. If you look at the panbo link, the furuno can see the boat's own wake, the 4g is at least as good as that up close
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Old 14-11-2011, 12:08   #272
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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They CLAIM a 17 mile range in rain. What more is needed?
1. proof of that 17 nm range in rain
2. make SARTs visible
3. make other active radar tech visible, like Sea-Me etc.
4. show RACON buoys
5. show energy consumption figures
6. demonstrate ARPA functionality and compliance
7. demonstrate accuracy for range and direction measurements

tell me when they manage these points and I'll come up with more

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 14-11-2011, 12:19   #273
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Okay, I checked it out. That article also shows a picture from a Furuno DRS4D 2' sized scanner (conventional NavNet 3D radar) of the same area. Tell me exactly what it is lacking compared to the 4G images??? It's not just Raymarine to compare with because Furuno is the one to beat if they want to get serious about it.

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Old 14-11-2011, 12:59   #274
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Re: Radar or Not ?

Why all the hostility? In an AIS thread no less.

You have a list of stuff that are dealbreakers for you, do your own damned research.

Why do you assume their range figures are off, or any more off than any other mfr?

Compared to the furuno, it's not a case of what's missing, it's just a fact that the simrad is BETTER. it has a more discriminating beam width and sharper resolution. And the FURUNO has a significant physical size advantage in the antenna. 2' is wider than 18", right? It SHOULD be BETTER than the smaller simrad, not 'lacking'

Oh, and it has instant on and uses very little power. 20w transmit and 2.9 standby.

I actually can't FIND the power consumption on the Furuno. But I find it most interesting that you bag on Simrad and question their honesty for a claimed feature. They claim low power and instant on, and back it up with numbers and a demo.

Oh, and while you're at it doing all the research, go ahead and show me where Furuno has demonstrated their 17 mile rain superiority.

You're right that they don't work with active radar tech, they also don't have a magnetron. I guess that's important if you are relying upon others to avoid colliding with you.
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Old 14-11-2011, 14:30   #275
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
1. proof of that 17 nm range in rain
2. make SARTs visible
3. make other active radar tech visible, like Sea-Me etc.
4. show RACON buoys
5. show energy consumption figures
6. demonstrate ARPA functionality and compliance
7. demonstrate accuracy for range and direction measurements

tell me when they manage these points and I'll come up with more

ciao!
Nick.
I think Nick youre being a little cynical here. FMCW radar is not new technology.

SARTS and RACONs will not be illuminated by a FMCW radar as its a different frequency. MInd you these devices get rarer every day.

Energy is in the spec sheet, instant start up too.

ARPA works fine and can be seen if you go to some boat shows, ARPA doesnt use any function in the radome anyway, its a purely plotter software system.

FMCW has better resolution per antenna size then conventional pulse radars, this is just a matter of physics. Range is a speed of light accuracy issue and bearing is a fucntional of mechanics.

SIMRADs 4G FMCW has its advantages and drawbacks. Its a cheaper radar to produce as most of the advantages are in the software. Id say its likely to be the choice of low-costs radars in the future. Id certainly say its better then cheap entry level 5-7 degree radars.
As to the superiority of Furuno I would disagree, Furunos leisure products are light years from their commercial products. All the UHD radars from Ray , Garmin and Furuno are basically the same, theres not ,much you can do to the basic physics. Yes you can talk about build quality etc,

Dave
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Old 14-11-2011, 14:53   #276
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Re: Radar or Not ?

Is there any advantage to having a longer than ~24 nmile range radar?

I can't immagion worrying about a collission with something more than 24 miles away, not to mention the radar horizion is only 20 nmiles or so off a normal sized cruising boat. (Radar 35' up detecting a target 35 foot up.)

However, I've seen a couple of larger boats for sale with up to 70 nmile range radars. Why would someone go through the hassle of having such a unit?

About the only thing I can think to use it for might be monitoring weather, or squals. It's about the only thing I can think of that would be high enough for the radar to detect!
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Old 14-11-2011, 14:55   #277
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
Is there any advantage to having a longer than ~24 nmile range radar?

I can't immagion worrying about a collission with something more than 24 miles away, not to mention the radar horizion is only 20 nmiles or so off a normal sized cruising boat. (Radar 35' up detecting a target 35 foot up.)

However, I've seen a couple of larger boats for sale with up to 70 nmile range radars. Why would someone go through the hassle of having such a unit?

Navigation and storm avaoidance
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Old 14-11-2011, 14:55   #278
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
Is there any advantage to having a longer than ~24 nmile range radar?

I can't immagion worrying about a collission with something more than 24 miles away, not to mention the radar horizion is only 20 nmiles or so off a normal sized cruising boat. (Radar 35' up detecting a target 35 foot up.)

However, I've seen a couple of larger boats for sale with up to 70 nmile range radars. Why would someone go through the hassle of having such a unit?
You can see weather further out.
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Old 14-11-2011, 15:07   #279
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Navigation and storm avaoidance
What would you be getting radar returns to navagate off of?

A target at 70 nmiles would be somewhere around 3200 foot above the ocean. I have no idea what might be that tall. I don't even think sky scrapers get close to that.

Weather I can belive, but I have to ask, is it all that effective?

Only other use I coudl think of is that the larger, more powerful units, with bigger antennas that allow them the longer range, might also allow them to "punch through" nasty weather more easily. Thus maybe pick up targets at shorter ranges in bad conditions, that the shorter range radars won't.
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Old 14-11-2011, 15:21   #280
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
What would you be getting radar returns to navagate off of?

A target at 70 nmiles would be somewhere around 3200 foot above the ocean. I have no idea what might be that tall. I don't even think sky scrapers get close to that.

Weather I can belive, but I have to ask, is it all that effective?

Only other use I coudl think of is that the larger, more powerful units, with bigger antennas that allow them the longer range, might also allow them to "punch through" nasty weather more easily. Thus maybe pick up targets at shorter ranges in bad conditions, that the shorter range radars won't.
All correct..the range thing is a byproduct. KW rating and antenna width have certain advantages that really are more desireable to evaluate than just "range".
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Old 14-11-2011, 15:41   #281
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
What would you be getting radar returns to navagate off of?

A target at 70 nmiles would be somewhere around 3200 foot above the ocean. I have no idea what might be that tall. I don't even think sky scrapers get close to that.

Weather I can belive, but I have to ask, is it all that effective?

Only other use I coudl think of is that the larger, more powerful units, with bigger antennas that allow them the longer range, might also allow them to "punch through" nasty weather more easily. Thus maybe pick up targets at shorter ranges in bad conditions, that the shorter range radars won't.
The 'goal' is when you see weather 40 miles out, try to determine it's track, and 'don't go that way'. Seeking a weak spot in the line of weather if you have to punch through isn't always apparent to the naked eye. Of course, it's somewhat of a crapshoot with 7kt boat speed. At night is when the bigger value of radar shows up.

With the 4k unit I have, I've been able to see lightning on the horizon and determine it's distance, in one case it was 61nm out. It comforts the crew.
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Old 14-11-2011, 15:54   #282
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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. It comforts the crew
try Dozol, much cheaper then a radar.

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Old 14-11-2011, 15:56   #283
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Re: Radar or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViribusUnitis View Post
Is there any advantage to having a longer than ~24 nmile range radar?

I can't immagion worrying about a collission with something more than 24 miles away, not to mention the radar horizion is only 20 nmiles or so off a normal sized cruising boat. (Radar 35' up detecting a target 35 foot up.)

However, I've seen a couple of larger boats for sale with up to 70 nmile range radars. Why would someone go through the hassle of having such a unit?

About the only thing I can think to use it for might be monitoring weather, or squals. It's about the only thing I can think of that would be high enough for the radar to detect!
Navigation. One of the best features of radar often overlooked in these days of chartplotters is the ability to plot position accurately and thesdays check on the electronic chart in your plotter.
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Old 14-11-2011, 15:57   #284
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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try Dozol, much cheaper then a radar.

Dave
For the crew or me? ;^)
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Old 14-11-2011, 16:18   #285
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Not too far different on my boat , but if anyone tried to remove either from the boat I'd go for them with a scaff pole....
A great english weapon and can be used to fend off boats that get past the radar and ais. Now everyone will need radar ais and a scaff pole. Maybe an early version of the boat hook. If you are on a budget the boat hook could be converted.....
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