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Old 09-11-2011, 18:10   #151
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

How well do those big aluminum ball radar reflectors work, does anyone know?
Useless absolutly useless , see practical sailor
If you are asking about the Davis Echomaster or similar corner-reflector types such as this:


they actually work pretty well. Some are better (Lensref, active electronic "reflectors"), but the Davis unit is way better than nothing, according to the test results I've seen.

On the other hand, the small cylindrical "Mobri" reflectors are practically useless:
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:19   #152
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Useless absolutly useless , see practical sailor
Not all of them...look at a lot of net ends/pot string ends and how commercial fishermen use them.

I've tested them personally...manuafactured and homemade...if made and mounted right they make almost invisible targets stand out well
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:52   #153
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We put radar on the boat the season after a freighter honked very close to us in the fog. We never saw him and he would not return VHF calls. Ais is next for me. Also last year we were able to sail away from LOTS of storms including one with 80 mph winds that wrecked our marina. I suggest the 4kw sets even if you can't put it high enough to use the power for ships. I can see rain sometimes 40 miles away.
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:57   #154
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Since AIS shows <1% of the vessels out there ...
???

Korrekt?

Unless u mean that being run down by a rowed inflatable equals being run down by a tanker.

BTW, mate, you won't see the inflatable on your radar either.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 09-11-2011, 20:31   #155
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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???

Korrekt?

Unless u mean that being run down by a rowed inflatable equals being run down by a tanker.

BTW, mate, you won't see the inflatable on your radar either.

Cheers,
b.
Yep, all those 299 ton rowed inflatables! Those are the ones that scare me!

AIS is only required for 300 tons & up, 65' & up, tankers, tugs over 26 feet, and vessels carrying more than 150 passengers. That leaves 99+% of boats without AIS.

A 250 ton fishing trawler vs. a 10 ton plastic boat wouldn't be much of a fight.
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Old 09-11-2011, 20:37   #156
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Re: Radar or Not ?

I think folks should also consider an active radar reflector, like the Sea-Me. These will show as "ships echo's" on radars around you. They are also nice and small plus you can switch them off when you want to be invisible :-8

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Old 09-11-2011, 20:52   #157
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Re: Radar or Not ?

It's really just a couple simple questions, with a simple answers.

Is my life and the life of those on-board worth the costs of radar?

If you answer no to the question of insurance, you most likely will answer no to the Q of radar.

AIS is a luxury... it's required if you don't have radar...but then again if you don't have radar, then life really has no value..so having luxury is a plus.

Top 10 list of Nav. equip..

1. a compass, that is swung and compensated to the ship, including deviation sheet
2. Depth Sounder
3. VHF radio, that's working.

Actually 1-3 can be in any order as log as they are on board, and are in working order.

4. local charts, including large charts for the questionable areas.
5. you have no business on the water piloting a vessel with out the above mentioned.
6. Radar
7. Chart plotter
8-10 are luxuries. If you have a big screen, and stereo but don't have 1-5 you shouldn't be on the water.
11. AIS Transponder
12 AIS Reciever

lloyd
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Old 09-11-2011, 20:56   #158
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
It's really just a couple simple questions, with a simple answers.

Is my life and the life of those on-board worth the costs of radar?

If you answer no to the question of insurance, you most likely will answer no to the Q of radar.

AIS is a luxury... it's required if you don't have radar...but then again if you don't have radar, then life really has no value..so having luxury is a plus.

Top 10 list of Nav. equip..

1. a compass, that is swung and compensated to the ship, including deviation sheet
2. Depth Sounder
3. VHF radio, that's working.

Actually 1-3 can be in any order as log as they are on board, and are in working order.

4. local charts, including large charts for the questionable areas.
5. you have no business on the water piloting a vessel with out the above mentioned.
6. Radar
7. Chart plotter
8-10 are luxuries. If you have a big screen, and stereo but don't have 1-5 you shouldn't be on the water.
11. AIS Transponder
12 AIS Reciever

lloyd

Agreed. good Analysis
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Old 09-11-2011, 21:16   #159
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Agreed. good Analysis
It's all fun and games, until someone gets their eye poked out by a sharp stick.

You would hope anyone piloting a vessel, would have put the sharp sticks down long ago.

but alas, we all find that not to be the case.

So arm yourself, to defend against sharp sticks.

lloyd
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Old 09-11-2011, 23:05   #160
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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The main trick in learning to use a radar well is to use it all the time!
Absolutely! Those who only turn radar on in limited visibility will be far less likely to be able to interpret targets on the screen.

Kinda like the football team the waits until it's losing before it experiments with its no-huddle offense.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:53   #161
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
AIS is a luxury... it's required if you don't have radar...
Can't agree there, AIS is a different animal from radar. For less than the cost of a shiney jacket you can have a little box drawing very little power which continually gives out very accurate and useful information.

Not a luxury at all, hard to see any argument in not having one.

Why does this always seem to get so polarised, you are allowed both, and the costs of an ais reciever is so low in boat terms that it seems daft not to have one.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:20   #162
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Re: Radar or Not ?

radar will be the most comforting gizmo on board,it wont lie(it will show echoes but you will get to know these from the real blips after awhile)even a small black and white 8 mile one from JRC is worth its small price(low power use to.Bigger,colour=more power.
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:18   #163
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Re: Radar or Not ?

I use a Davis Echomaster radar reflector- one of the plastic ones with gold foil coating. It's up by the spreader in a double-catch-rain configuration. Reports are that it gives a very clear echo for miles.

I suspect many of the people who are saying they'd get a radar before AIS simply haven't used the AIS yet. It is a far, far superior collision-avoidance tool for use with almost all commercial traffic and, increasingly, some pleasure craft that carry a transponder.

The argument for carrying radar is then to avoid the other vessels that aren't transmitting AIS info-- and to spot weather. (Chart plotters have made radar for navigation kind of redundant.) However, in practice, I found that, in fog, smaller pleasure craft or fishing boats can be seen seen with the Mark I eyeball in plenty of time to avoid a collision, except in the very rarest of zero-visibility situations (where you need to be going dead slow and using the Mark II eardrum). And if you get in that zero-visibility situation, there are a lot of pleasure boats out there with radar that don't seem to know how to use it to avoid a collision (and more dangerously, seem to be ignorant of that fact.)

Next summer I plan to cruise toward the south. If I were going back to Maine, I might try to pick up a used radar to supplement the AIS. But going toward the Bahamas, it's not on my list of winter projects.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:21   #164
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Re: Radar or Not ?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
It's really just a couple simple questions, with a simple answers.

Is my life and the life of those on-board worth the costs of radar?

(...)

AIS is a luxury... it's required if you don't have radar...but then again if you don't have radar, then life really has no value..so having luxury is a plus.
Human life cannot be valued vis-a-vis objects or lack of such. Or do you think otherwise?

If you do think otherwise, then HOW MANY radars is your life worth?

b.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:03   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tia Bu
I suspect many of the people who are saying they'd get a radar before AIS simply haven't used the AIS yet. It is a far, far superior collision-avoidance tool for use with almost all commercial traffic and, increasingly, some pleasure craft that carry a transponder.

The argument for carrying radar is then to avoid the other vessels that aren't transmitting AIS info-- and to spot weather. (Chart plotters have made radar for navigation kind of redundant.)
I have to disagree with this statement. First, your AIS does not determine position, speed and course of targets... It's those targets that send you this information if they want and it may or may not be accurate. Second, the AIS system is fully dependent on GPS. If GPS fails, you will loose both AIS and your chart plotter, the two tools you list as your primary instruments to replace radar. Third, radar is not just to check targets that don't send AIS updates... It is THE tool to check ALL targets. The simple reason is that it does not lie and does not depend on GPS to function (it'll still want to use it though). Also, as long as not all important buoys and land features like points, lighthouses etc. have an AIS transponder, you will need radar to determine their bearing in any conditions where you can't use optics (at night, bad weather etc). Your AIS is useless for that. A chartplotter will work as long as GPS is operational and the chart used is accurate (and this is the #1 reason one can't depend on it in most of the world, error of more than one mile are pleenty).

In fact, as one learns when and how to use radar, it will be used during bright sunny days too, because it's calculations of bearing and distance to objects is way more advanced than any other tool aboard.

And this is before regarding the functionality to superimpose a radar image over a chart of the area. This allows you to make 100% sure that the chart is correct or even to "shift" the chart to the correct GPS positioning if it is not. When that is done, you have combined chartplotter with radar truth and you can profit from best of both.

cheers,
Nick.
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